SR did you ever admit to being wrong?

Beefy said:
All my secrets are already on your site. Anyhow, I was simply pointing out that your insinuation that Damocles has been dishonest was in and of itself dishonest. Your retort is a typical SR style non-sequitur. Another for of dishonesty. And shouldn't it be "peanut boy" if I'm not yet a grown up?


youre right i apologize. sorry... peanut boy.

And I feel like damo is trying to avoid the obvious, which is to say that a few members wanted to change something and basically gave me an option. Change this or else. He then denied they wanted to change anything, and first said that they were just operating within the conditions. Then he changed to say that they wanted no change. They he changed to say that they wanted to restrict change. And finally he said they were working to affect change.

SR
 
SR_ said:
youre right i apologize. sorry... peanut boy.

And I feel like damo is trying to avoid the obvious, which is to say that a few members wanted to change something and basically gave me an option. Change this or else. He then denied they wanted to change anything, and first said that they were just operating within the conditions. Then he changed to say that they wanted to change. They he changed to say that they wanted to restrict change. And finally he said they were working to affect change.

SR


Why was Grind banned? And who else did you ban? I haven't been given a straight answer. Was it because he wanted to affect change?

peanut boy
 
SR_ said:
you just wrote a few mintues ago they realized it and recognized it and attempted to use the tools you gave them to effect the change they wanted. Dixie is on the record saying as much.

its like youre saying that they worked for change, and that change was that they did not want change, so its somehow different. ITS NOT DIFFERENT.

come on damo. I just demonstrated how the features of this board are used to affect change, at some point you have to decide that this is either your property and you dont have to submit to the disruptive actions of any member USING THE ESTABLISHED framework or else, or you youre saying that you dont have a right to do as you wish with your own property.

Strawman Alert! WhOOOP! WhOOOP! I have never stated that you have done anything wrong. Only that I was stunned when you seemed surprise that people did this....

As I just said, you made a new rule yesterday whereas members cannot pose as other members. I may not like that change, I may decide to post all of my post in the largest boldest font in the color yellow giving everyone a headache and making the threads hard to follow. Im just using the framework, yet i dont feel its right to use that framework to change something I DONT OWN.

SR
However the only option you had left was to make a rule and enforce it. Which you did. I have never stated that it was wrong to do so. Only suggested that I have been stunned throughout at the shock you showed when they did it...

I have stated:

1. That I predicted it.
2. That you could have forseen it as I stated what would happen before you ever implemented anything at all.
3. That you insisted it wouldn't happen, then when it did you were shocked.
4. That in every case it was within the framework of what you proposed and even encouraged. That they were only running a campaign so that they too would have representation on the council...

I have not stated (nor will):

1. That you were wrong for doing what you did.
2. That you could not make rules as you saw fit.
3. That they were right or wrong in their campaign....

All of the last are strawmen, that I have not stated at all. This is a defensive attitude that should not exist...

I have also stated:

1. That you have implemented a wise move (majority vote rather than unanimity)...
2. That I would have made it Supermajority to insure the most support with the least possibility of a minority group creating the havoc they did create...
 
Strawman Alert! WhOOOP! WhOOOP! I have never stated that you have done anything wrong. Only that I was stunned when you seemed surprise that people did this....

yeah ill admit that, i didnt think members would work to harm something on the board. a little too much faith i guess.

but thats not really what i was speaking too.

There is a debate in which these members felt they were entitled to do such, to demand change or else that is. Hell Dixie STILL feels like he's entitled to it. And what I was speaking to was more along the lines of property rights, not really whether or not the possibility existed for members to do harm, I have openly admitted that and argued that EVERY feature can be used for that, and demonstrated it using the features you make available to us here.

I guess, what Im saying is that just because you provide the framework it doesnt entitle anyone here to use them to force you to capitulate.

I think its obvious that these members desired to force me to capitulate through personal attack and an effort to do harm to the board. The principle of doing such action to demand change to someone else's property is wrong and indefensible yet some continue to defend the action.

That was my point. In order to correctly debate it you have to accept the fact that A) the framework is not the issue, as I demonstrated you offer a framework that can be condusive to abuse, its the actual members motivation and actions that are at issue, not the system. and B) anyone should have the ability to do as they please with their own property without the threat from others to do harm to said property in order to get their way.

SR
 
"And so they found Tiana, who naturally willingly joined. HOWEVER they didnt tell her what the true motivation was. She honestly didnt know, and I believe her in that respect. A few other members have contacted me since and said they were approached, and again all given phoney reasons to join in."

They told me what their motivation was. I just didn't give a rats a$$. I had my agenda they had theirs.
 
SR_ said:
ok lets say they were demonstrating the problems of the council. What problem would there be. If people didnt agree on any issues, i see no problem. If we never labled anyone a troll, i see no problem. If we never did anything I see no problem.

I do see a problem if the elected member CHOSE to always vote in the negative no matter what. now this isnt an action of the council, this is a reflection of the elected member. In essense the member is the problem, not the council.

SR

No, the problem existed in the way the council was set up in the first place. You effectively set it up so that one person could veto all actions of the council in much the same way as the UN Security Council can be blocked by a single rogue nation.

This has been explained to you time and time again yet you refused to change your bull-headed ways. You had a vision. One that you came up with without (it appears) any input from outside sources. When you presented it to the board others foresaw problems with it and your friends (Dixie and Grind) attempted to give you input. You didn't like what they said and turned on them. Others also saw issues with the whole idea and you didn't like their ideas either so you dug in your heals and turned many of them against you. A good leader listens to those below him and acts. He doesn't ignore their input without first weighing their insights.

That is about the size of it.

Immie
 
LadyT said:
"And so they found Tiana, who naturally willingly joined. HOWEVER they didnt tell her what the true motivation was. She honestly didnt know, and I believe her in that respect. A few other members have contacted me since and said they were approached, and again all given phoney reasons to join in."

They told me what their motivation was. I just didn't give a rats a$$. I had my agenda they had theirs.

i understand, thats why you werent banned.

following fools is not malicious tiana.

SR
 
Immanuel said:
No, the problem existed in the way the council was set up in the first place. You effectively set it up so that one person could veto all actions of the council in much the same way as the UN Security Council can be blocked by a single rogue nation.

This has been explained to you time and time again yet you refused to change your bull-headed ways. You had a vision. One that you came up with without (it appears) any input from outside sources. When you presented it to the board others foresaw problems with it and your friends (Dixie and Grind) attempted to give you input. You didn't like what they said and turned on them. Others also saw issues with the whole idea and you didn't like their ideas either so you dug in your heals and turned many of them against you. A good leader listens to those below him and acts. He doesn't ignore their input without first weighing their insights.

That is about the size of it.

Immie

You GO girl!
 
No, the problem existed in the way the council was set up in the first place. You effectively set it up so that one person could veto all actions of the council in much the same way as the UN Security Council can be blocked by a single rogue nation.

again immie, what system is there that prevents the desires of one person to act in a malicious manner?

how come you keep avoiding my questions?

SR
 
When you presented it to the board others foresaw problems with it and your friends (Dixie and Grind) attempted to give you input. You didn't like what they said and turned on them.

so youre saying I should embrace them and their ideas?

again, i must do what others say or else? is that it?

SR
 
Immanuel said:
No, the problem existed in the way the council was set up in the first place. You effectively set it up so that one person could veto all actions of the council in much the same way as the UN Security Council can be blocked by a single rogue nation.

This has been explained to you time and time again yet you refused to change your bull-headed ways. You had a vision. One that you came up with without (it appears) any input from outside sources. When you presented it to the board others foresaw problems with it and your friends (Dixie and Grind) attempted to give you input. You didn't like what they said and turned on them. Others also saw issues with the whole idea and you didn't like their ideas either so you dug in your heals and turned many of them against you. A good leader listens to those below him and acts. He doesn't ignore their input without first weighing their insights.

That is about the size of it.

Immie


Scathing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:readit:
 
SR_ said:
When you presented it to the board others foresaw problems with it and your friends (Dixie and Grind) attempted to give you input. You didn't like what they said and turned on them.

so youre saying I should embrace them and their ideas?

again, i must do what others say or else? is that it?

SR

No dip$hit. No one has said you HAVE to do anything. If you wanted to keep all of your members, it would have been for you go about things completely differently, but being the stubborn control freak that you are, you didn't and you've been exposed for being the slanderous sack of $hit that you are. You are seriously the king of all Strawmen.
 
SR_ said:
When you presented it to the board others foresaw problems with it and your friends (Dixie and Grind) attempted to give you input. You didn't like what they said and turned on them.

so youre saying I should embrace them and their ideas?

again, i must do what others say or else? is that it?

SR


no, that's not it.

again! strawman ALERT!!! sr

you don't have to do a damn thing, you reap what you sow....or don't sow for that matter!


a WISE man listens.... that's the lesson of the day!

you can do WHATEVER you want, and NO ONE is arguing that issue.

your members were ACTUALLY TRYING to help you sr.... your ego appears to have gotten in the ''way'' of that... and paranoia that we are all ''out to get ya'', because we are not!
 
Care4all said:
no, that's not it.

again! strawman ALERT!!! sr

you don't have to do a damn thing, you reap what you sow....or don't sow for that matter!


a WISE man listens.... that's the lesson of the day!

you can do WHATEVER you want, and NO ONE is arguing that issue.

your members were ACTUALLY TRYING to help you sr.... your ego appears to have gotten in the ''way'' of that... and paranoia that we are all ''out to get ya'', because we are not!


i see. so my members decide they need to ruin features to help me.

well i appreciate the help guys. next time you need help burning down your house, you can count me in. until then, ill respect the fact the your house is your property, and my input about what you should do with your property in no way entitles me to DO anything to "help" you.

SR
 
why is SR even posting here? Go post at your fantasy site where political deabte reigns supreme. Where the great debater Deshbot never tires and the security council protects the innocent from malicious trolls! LOL
 
Cornelius said:
***Chapter Two--Conservative Debate Handbook***
The Right & Duty To Keep & Bear Arms


Synopsis
The right to keep & bear arms, inherent to the human condition--hence unalienable--founded on the same philosophic moral basis (individual responsibility) as free enterprise and freedom of conscience. While morally unassailable, it (like free enterprise and free market) is thoroughly practical and utilitarian, conferring numerous benefits. The ultimate benefit is as the linchpin of a free society--that which secures all other freedoms.


The right of the citizens to keep and bear arms has justly been considered as the palladium of the liberties of the republic.--Mr. Justice Joseph Story.


Overview


For two centuries, political exponents of man as an individual have fallen into two ideological camps; those who premised their position on Natural Law and moral philosophy, and those who premised their position on Utilitarian considerations. American Conservatives since the Founding Fathers, seeing Government as merely the agency of a social compact between the governed and the State--or between the rulers and the ruled--have viewed the issue as primarily a moral question. Respect for individual Liberty was respect for God's Creation.



From Magna Carta, through Locke and Jefferson, it was the State's respect for this social compact which provided the basis for the individual to respect the authority of the State: for his voluntary submission to its laws, for the duty to serve its needs and defend its interests. Under this concept, the ideological basis for the American Republics, the individual retained his basic natural rights; rights deemed unalienable, coming not from Society (or the State as the political manifestation of Society); but bestowed by the Almighty as inherent to the very nature of man.



These rights included personal freedom in relation to economic endeavor, free access to the market and a right to retain the fruits of one's labor--rewards usually determined by the market, which became the property of one endeavoring, to be passed on to his family and heirs;--together with freedom of personal conscience, limited only by one's obligations to that social compact; and together (by obvious implication) with the right to defend what was one's own.



Jefferson put it thus in the Declaration Of Independence:



We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men....are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.



That Jefferson changed the "life, liberty and property," of the older exponents of Natural Law, was in no respect a trivialization of the essential justice or moral foundation for private property. Jefferson was land rich--but often cash poor (not infrequently the landowner's problem)--and believed in a society of free holders. But the Declaration was an exposition of the moral, Creation derived, basis for human society; and it recognized that the unalienable rights of man included the right to pursue happiness not only via economic or utilitarian pursuits, but via art, philosophy, devotion, reflection and whimsy. The Fathers understood that for many there were things more important than the worldly or material.



While the document defines the moral rather than utilitarian basis for the early American adherence to maximum individual freedom, it clearly implies both the right of a free people to keep and bear arms--else how indeed could they alter or abolish an errant Government--and the utility of an armed population. (We will return to this in more detail.)



The principle that armed free men could and should legally rise against a Government that violated the social compact was at least 561 years old when Jefferson penned the Declaration. The Magna Carta (1215) provided in part (Chapters 60 & 61, Magna Carta Commission Translation, 1964):



60 All the customs and liberties aforesaid, which We have granted to be enjoyed, as far as in Us lies, by Our people throughout Our kingdom, let all Our subjects, whether clerks or laymen, observe, as far as in them lies, toward their dependents.



61 Whereas We, for the honor of God and the amendment of Our realm, and in order the better to allay the discord arisen between Us and Our barons, have granted all these things aforesaid, We, willing that they be forever enjoyed wholly..., do give and grant to Our subjects the following security, to wit, that the barons shall elect any twenty-five barons of the kingdom..., who shall ... keep, hold, and cause to be kept the peace and liberties which We have granted unto them... so that if We, Our Justiciary, bailiffs, or any of Our ministers offend in any respect against any man, or shall transgress any of these articles ..., and the offense be brought before four of the said twenty-five barons, those four barons shall come before Us, ...declaring the offense, and shall demand speedy amends for the same. If we ... fail to afford redress within the space of forty days from the time the case was brought before Us ..., the aforesaid four barons shall refer the matter to the rest of the twenty-five barons, who together with the commonalty of the whole country, shall distrain and distress Us to the utmost of their power, to wit, by capture of Our castles, lands, and possessions and by all other possible means, until compensation be made....etc..



The Utilitarian argument for individual liberty is quite different. It is premised not on compact or on what is right, but on what confers the greatest benefit to the greatest number. The motivation is the interest of the collective, the economy or society, rather than an acceptance of the Nature of God's Creation or a concern for establishing a moral basis for the individual's duty towards society. Jeremy Bentham, the definer of this approach, put it more simply: The sole object of government ought to be the greatest happiness of the greatest possible number of the community.



While this collectivist perspective is offensive to most American Conservatives--your correspondent among them--because it reverses basic priorities; the realities of man's nature render the debate largely academic as it pertains to most purely economic decisions facing the modern State. (The distinctions are of course vital to many other questions.) America recognized and respected the individuality of man, because it was morally right. But having accepted the freedoms which flowed from that recognition, America demonstrated to the entire world, the utilitarian benefits of a free society.



For the first 150 years of Independence, we put the individual on his own mettle to determine his material position in life. And the resulting free, market driven economy, proved so much more utilitarian than any of the more regimented societies overseas, that those who came here--from infinitely varied backgrounds--all did better here than their ancestral cousins had ever done in their ancestral homelands: For all the vast range of ethnic types, the same experiment, the same result.



The dynamics were not hard to fathom; although they had escaped much of the old world throughout the ages. By making the motivater not the prescriptions of the theorist, but the self-directed, self-interest of the participant, we unlocked the energy (both mental and physical) of the whole people; each aspiring participant driven to find what he or she could do on which the free market put the greatest value. Communism collapsed because fear and coercion could not bring out the same effective level of individual involvement. It simply could not compete. Today, even the Socialist Governments of Western Europe are engaged in denationalizing industry, and pinning their future plans on market economics and private enterprise, precisely because of that utility; although in other respects many preserve their studied contempt for man as an individual.



It is clearly morally right--inherent to the human situation--that free men be allowed to obtain and possess the arms needed to protect themselves and their families--including the fruits of their and their forebears' labor. There is surely no point in the historic compact, where anyone gave up the right to self-protection on the promise of political protection. The right to exact punishment for crime is a different matter. There, there is reasonable consideration, a "trade off." The State assumed the function of punishment, subject to the rights of a fair trial, etc.. We gave up the right to take private vengeance on the promise of a fairly administered system of Justice. There, there is time for deliberation.

cornelius, this is what most of us use this board for. theres plenty political debate on the other board.

this is the off topic forum isnt it?

SR
 
SR_ said:
No, the problem existed in the way the council was set up in the first place. You effectively set it up so that one person could veto all actions of the council in much the same way as the UN Security Council can be blocked by a single rogue nation.

again immie, what system is there that prevents the desires of one person to act in a malicious manner?

how come you keep avoiding my questions?

SR

Haven't seen your question. Where did you ask it before?

The only system I can think of that prevents a single representative to act in a malicious manner is yours. The UN Security Council allows it. Our own Congress allows it. Yours is the only system that prevents it by direct rule of the king.

What it appears is that you wanted a puppet governing body to do your bidding. Any deliberate free will was strickly and clearly forbidden.

Immie
 
SR_ said:
cornelius, this is what most of us use this board for. theres plenty political debate on the other board.

this is the off topic forum isnt it?

SR

I thought Whatever Goes here
 
SR_ said:
When you presented it to the board others foresaw problems with it and your friends (Dixie and Grind) attempted to give you input. You didn't like what they said and turned on them.

so youre saying I should embrace them and their ideas?

again, i must do what others say or else? is that it?

SR

Only a fool totally ignores the input of friends.

Embrace? No, hear and weigh their input yes. Not slap your friends in the face when all they are trying to do is help.

Immie
 
Back
Top