Talk of bringing back the MILITARY DRAFT even though 13th amendment bans it

Here, let me answer those questions since it ran off all the draft haters:

How many 18 year-old draftees died in Vietnam? 101
What was the average age of a US KIA in Vietnam? 22.8
What was the percentage of draftees killed in Vietnam? 23%
How many of those 18-year-old draftees killed were Black? 7

In fact, Blacks as casualties are underrepresented in proportion to their numbers in the population.

If anything, on the whole, the draft dodgers are less educated, less motivated, less successful, and generally more of a burden on society than those that served honorably.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
That they actively dodged the draft as opposed to say took allowed deferments or other legal actions. Taking a deferment isn't draft dodging necessarily.
As a note, there were people back then that knew they'd be drafted, and actually volunteered to be drafted on a specific date rather than being randomly inducted. There were often advantages for them in this such as completion of school, getting specific time off to get affairs in order, etc.
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Agreed, it's just dodging one's duties to one's country if done with ulterior motives. Clinton is definitely guilty of that and so is GW Bush. Biden was okay, but both Trump and Rush lied and paid off a doctor for their deferments. I don't know enough about the other chickenhawks like Cheney. Rumsfeld had prior service in the Navy.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed, it's just dodging one's duties to one's country if done with ulterior motives. Clinton is definitely guilty of that and so is GW Bush. Biden was okay, but both Trump and Rush lied and paid off a doctor for their deferments. I don't know enough about the other chickenhawks like Cheney. Rumsfeld had prior service in the Navy.
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dying in bankers wars is stupid.


faux patriotism.

where are you now as china is using a different system of domination?

You're nowhere to be found, you traitorous lie bot.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Agreed, it's just dodging one's duties to one's country if done with ulterior motives. Clinton is definitely guilty of that and so is GW Bush. Biden was okay, but both Trump and Rush lied and paid off a doctor for their deferments. I don't know enough about the other chickenhawks like Cheney. Rumsfeld had prior service in the Navy.
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Clinton, I agree. Bush weaseled his way into the TANG, so it's more of a hair splitting there. He served, but chose by virtue of his family's position where he served. Biden was deferred both as a student and being found physically unfit (asthma as a teenager). Medical deferments are common. Trump and Rush both got medical deferments, but I doubt you have any solid proof they bought a doctor to get them.
Cheney, like Biden--and John Wayne surprisingly--got deferments for marriage and having children, medical conditions (heart), and being a student.
Clinton's case was clear draft dodging. He knew he was going to be called up, signed up for ROTC to get a deferment, and once deferred he quit ROTC which should have made him eligible for the draft. He knew the draft board wouldn't recognize his actions and he got away with avoiding the draft.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Clinton, I agree. Bush weaseled his way into the TANG, so it's more of a hair splitting there. He served, but chose by virtue of his family's position where he served. Biden was deferred both as a student and being found physically unfit (asthma as a teenager). Medical deferments are common. Trump and Rush both got medical deferments, but I doubt you have any solid proof they bought a doctor to get them.
Cheney, like Biden--and John Wayne surprisingly--got deferments for marriage and having children, medical conditions (heart), and being a student.
Clinton's case was clear draft dodging. He knew he was going to be called up, signed up for ROTC to get a deferment, and once deferred he quit ROTC which should have made him eligible for the draft. He knew the draft board wouldn't recognize his actions and he got away with avoiding the draft.
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GW served but not very well. If he'd been under me, he'd have either complied or been cashiered.

Funny how the "healthiest president ever" was too unhealthy to serve is a typist at Fort Dix. He, like Rush and Clinton, did not want to serve.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
GW served but not very well. If he'd been under me, he'd have either complied or been cashiered.

Funny how the "healthiest president ever" was too unhealthy to serve is a typist at Fort Dix. He, like Rush and Clinton, did not want to serve.
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GW Bush served just fine. He was in a unit that flew the F-102 Delta Dagger (aka "Duce") interceptor. He qualified as a pilot and flew the plane. By the way, it was probably the most difficult single-seat fighter to fly in the US inventory at the time. When the TANG began phasing out the plane (it was obsolescent by the late 60's and replaced by the much better F-106) low hour pilots like Bush were left without a job.
That meant he had more flexibility as to what he did on his drill time. Since he was surplus to needs, but a mandatory driller, he had to find things to do. That's common in the reserve, particularly with officers.
He performed his required service and resigned his commission when his mandatory service period was over. Other than his fenagling to get in the TANG, Bush's service was routine and mundane.

I'll agree that Trump and Clinton didn't want to serve. Rush on the other hand, got one student deferment then after dropping out of college got classified 1-Y for unspecified reasons and was ineligible for the draft as it was being operated at the time. What that classification was based on isn't clear, so I can't comment to that. Rush haters claim it was for an anal cyst and some other nonsense without proof or merit, but that's not relevant here.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
GW Bush served just fine. He was in a unit that flew the F-102 Delta Dagger (aka "Duce") interceptor. He qualified as a pilot and flew the plane. By the way, it was probably the most difficult single-seat fighter to fly in the US inventory at the time. When the TANG began phasing out the plane (it was obsolescent by the late 60's and replaced by the much better F-106) low hour pilots like Bush were left without a job.
That meant he had more flexibility as to what he did on his drill time. Since he was surplus to needs, but a mandatory driller, he had to find things to do. That's common in the reserve, particularly with officers.
He performed his required service and resigned his commission when his mandatory service period was over. Other than his fenagling to get in the TANG, Bush's service was routine and mundane.

I'll agree that Trump and Clinton didn't want to serve. Rush on the other hand, got one student deferment then after dropping out of college got classified 1-Y for unspecified reasons and was ineligible for the draft as it was being operated at the time. What that classification was based on isn't clear, so I can't comment to that. Rush haters claim it was for an anal cyst and some other nonsense without proof or merit, but that's not relevant here.
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Disagreed on both Bush and Rush. Like Trump and Clinton, they didn't want to serve although, admittedly, GW Bush came closest to fulfilling his obligations even if he didn't quite get there.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Disagreed on both Bush and Rush. Like Trump and Clinton, they didn't want to serve although, admittedly, GW Bush came closest to fulfilling his obligations even if he didn't quite get there.
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Bush fulfilled his obligation. Rush the picture is unclear on why he got a 1-Y deferment.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
Because that dodge has been tried numerous times now by those that don't want to be drafted. The two operative parts of the Constitution that apply to allowing a draft are first that the states can raise militia and that the militia consists, at least in theory, of all males 18 years of age or older. This is then coupled to Article I, section 8, clause 15 that permits Congress to call out the militia in time of war.

https://constitution.congress.gov/b...s,to obey the President's call of the militia.

That in effect gives Congress the Right to call up all males 18 years or older, or some portion thereof, in time of war, insurrection, etc. So, a draft would likely be illegal in a period of peace with no declared war, or in a war that was not formally declared by congressional legislation. Thus, the draft is legal in times of war, and the 13th Amendment doesn't apply to the military in that situation.
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bad decisions.

it's unconstititutional.

it's human trafficking and coercion. it's an affront to the lord even.

ask the amish


the amish got it right.
 
AssHatZombie said:
bad decisions.

it's unconstititutional.

it's human trafficking and coercion. it's an affront to the lord even.

ask the amish


the amish got it right.
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The Amish don't generally refuse to be drafted. Instead, so long as they are given the option of non-combat duty they will accept being drafted. During the Civil War for example, there were Quaker artillery batteries, a religious group also opposed to combat service. The Quakers would deliver the cannon, limbers, and other equipment to a military camp or base where they would hand it over to the crews that were to take it into battle.

The alternatives, both in the Revolution, War of 1812, and Civil War was paying a "tax" penalty for not accepting the draft. Many Amish that could afford that tax willingly paid it to avoid being drafted. In WW 2, the Amish, along with Quakers and Mennonites, were given the alternative of civic duty serving in the Civilian Public Service Corps. There was little opposition from any of these religious groups to being inducted for their period of service, many feeling that it served both society and their religion.

Most outright draft dodgers are narcissistic assholes who think they're too good to serve in any public role. They see it as beneath them as much as anything. A sort of I don't want to go in the military for service because it sucks and I'm better than that...
 
AssHatZombie said:
it's human trafficking and coercion. it's an affront to the lord even.

ask the amish

the amish got it right.
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The Amish are against violence towards their fellow man, so they oppose any form of killing. They are opposed to volunteering to be a soldier that kills, or even killing in self defense. They are not opposed to being drafted as a conscientious objector (medic, clerical work, etc.)
 
Walt said:
The Amish are against violence towards their fellow man, so they oppose any form of killing. They are opposed to volunteering to be a soldier that kills, or even killing in self defense. They are not opposed to being drafted as a conscientious objector (medic, clerical work, etc.)
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that for a bunch of irrelevant details.
 
Walt said:
Bush got an early discharge, so failed to fulfill his obligation. Limbaugh and trump got faked doctors letters from friends of their fathers.
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If the military decided to give him one, then that's fine. His obligation was fulfilled. I've personally seen a number of early outs offered by the military at various times for various reasons. If someone took advantage of one, that's perfectly fine, it was offered to them.

Neither you nor I know what Limbaugh's situation was with getting that 1-Y deferment. There's plenty of idiot speculation, but no substance. All we know is he got one. Same with Trump, although I think his is more suspect.
 
T. A. Gardner said:
If the military decided to give him one, then that's fine. His obligation was fulfilled.
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Bush took a lengthy "unofficial leave". Then he applied for a transfer, it was rejected, but he transferred anyway. After refusing to follow orders to remain qualified as a pilot, Bush applied for an early separation, which was rejected...

At this point, people who did not have a father who was a high ranking politician would be looking at an Other Than Honorable Discharge.
 
Walt said:
Bush took a lengthy "unofficial leave". Then he applied for a transfer, it was rejected, but he transferred anyway. After refusing to follow orders to remain qualified as a pilot, Bush applied for an early separation, which was rejected...

At this point, people who did not have a father who was a high ranking politician would be looking at an Other Than Honorable Discharge.
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You really don't know how the National Guard and Reserve work do you? You also clearly have ZERO knowledge of the difference between junior enlisted, senior enlisted, officers and senior officers and what privileges come with having one of those positions.

For example, officers do not get an "Honorable Discharge," or other sort of discharge. Officers are commissioned. They remain on service initially until their first period of commissioning is done (usually 2 to 6 years). Once they have completed that time they can resign at any time. After completing 20 years of service (or more) they can retire. If they fuck up, they are dismissed from service, not discharged. Officers serve At the pleasure of the branch of service and Congress. They don't sign an enlistment contract. Enlisted sign an enlistment contract.

As for remaining qualified as a pilot, one cannot remain qualified if the plane you are supposed to fly is no longer in service. That's what happened in Bush's unit. The F-102 was decommissioned and not immediately replaced with a new type. For junior officers in particular, that made them dead weight on the payroll so the option to resign or become inactive was given.

Officers can be put in a "no pay" status at any time. Was that Bush's "unofficial leave" status? You likely don't even know. If it was, then it wasn't leave, he was in a "no pay" status with no billet so he wouldn't have to show up for shit. That's the status John Kerry was in on returning to the US from his utterly short tour in Vietnam.
 
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