Taxation is immoral. I'll never think differently

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BRUTALITOPS

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and even if you want to argue society can't function without it (not proven), that still doesn't make it right. The south at one time couldn't function without slavery, neither could ancient rome or greece. In spite of that, slavery was still immoral. The "society can't function without it" is a bad argument when it comes to the morality of something.

We have no way to opt out. And no smug liberals, even if you move to somalia, the U.S. will still lay claim to your labor and demand you pay your taxes even if you live abroad.

We are slaves to the government. The state lays claim to our labor the way a feudal lord laid claim to the serfs land and some of the crops that resulted from it.

Individuals should be allowed to OPT out. Police and fire can be paid as a fine if you ever need it. You can pay a car tax for roads. Anything not sustainable by the free market should be eliminated.

FUCK TAXES I WILL NEVER CHANGE
 
It is a hold over from the Feudal War Lords that want their fief.

How do you pay for the 'Court System' that enforces the Laws?
How do you pay for the 'Representation' (Congress) that you get?
Who pays for the 'Main War Lord' that IS the Country?
 
FartCatcher said:
I'll never think
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I've disagreed with you so often...I thought I'd take the opportunity to agree with you on this occasion...about the above quoted part of your post title.

I've certainly seen no evidence that you ever will...so I agree.

Totally and with enthusiasm.
 
FartCatcher said:
and even if you want to argue society can't function without it (not proven), that still doesn't make it right. The south at one time couldn't function without slavery, neither could ancient rome or greece. In spite of that, slavery was still immoral. The "society can't function without it" is a bad argument when it comes to the morality of something.

We have no way to opt out. And no smug liberals, even if you move to somalia, the U.S. will still lay claim to your labor and demand you pay your taxes even if you live abroad.

We are slaves to the government. The state lays claim to our labor the way a feudal lord laid claim to the serfs land and some of the crops that resulted from it.

Individuals should be allowed to OPT out. Police and fire can be paid as a fine if you ever need it. You can pay a car tax for roads. Anything not sustainable by the free market should be eliminated.

FUCK TAXES I WILL NEVER CHANGE
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You can opt out you ninny patted libertarian. Renounce your citizenship and get the fuck out of our country you free loading moocher.
 
Jack said:
It is a hold over from the Feudal War Lords that want their fief.

How do you pay for the 'Court System' that enforces the Laws?
How do you pay for the 'Representation' (Congress) that you get?
Who pays for the 'Main War Lord' that IS the Country?
Click to expand...


How do you pay for the roads?
How do you pay for utilities?
How do you pay for education?
How do you pay for fire departments?

Grind is just whining about his pet political theory that doesn’t work, has never shown any evidence it can work, and can’t convince enough people it does work to get elected dog catcher so he’s having a temper tantrum in impotent rage. Emphasis on “impotent” as that’s the only word that accurately describes libertarianism.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
How do you pay for the roads?
How do you pay for utilities?
How do you pay for education?
How do you pay for fire departments?

Grind is just whining about his pet political theory that doesn’t work, has never shown any evidence it can work, and can’t convince enough people it does work to get elected dog catcher so he’s having a temper tantrum in impotent rage. Emphasis on “impotent” as that’s the only word that accurately describes libertarianism.
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I have a GREAT suggestion. Tell Grind NOT to pay his Property Tax. Then when the County sells his Property for NOT paying Taxes, and the NEW OWNER has the Sheriff evict Grind from his OWN HOUSE, tell Grind to 'resist arrest' so they have to shoot him 9 or 10 times. That should get Grind's mind right.

You know, Mott. It's funny how people really think they own their 'Real Estate Property'. The fact is: You only 'own' your house as long as you pay 'a fief' (Property Tax) to the Local Lord (the County).
 
I have always been curious about this argument that taxes are immoral and should be abolished altogether. How would such a society work? How would you be able to protect the average citizen from being taken advantage of? Greed is also immoral, and an unfettered free market usually doesn't account for that. I am not here to change anyone's mind; I am just asking to see how that would work.
 
FartCatcher said:
and even if you want to argue society can't function without it (not proven), that still doesn't make it right. The south at one time couldn't function without slavery, neither could ancient rome or greece. In spite of that, slavery was still immoral. The "society can't function without it" is a bad argument when it comes to the morality of something.

We have no way to opt out. And no smug liberals, even if you move to somalia, the U.S. will still lay claim to your labor and demand you pay your taxes even if you live abroad.

We are slaves to the government. The state lays claim to our labor the way a feudal lord laid claim to the serfs land and some of the crops that resulted from it.

Individuals should be allowed to OPT out. Police and fire can be paid as a fine if you ever need it. You can pay a car tax for roads. Anything not sustainable by the free market should be eliminated.

FUCK TAXES I WILL NEVER CHANGE
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Did you even bother to think this through? For instance, there's a rash of burglaries in your neighborhood. What are you and your neighbors going to do, hold a bake sale to raise enough money to buy a cop to investigate, look for evidence, and make an arrest? What then? Your rented cop arrests a suspect. Ruh roh, it's your teenage son. You guys going to start up a Gofundme to pay for his atty (since you're no longer paying for public defenders and courts), a judge, and to build a jail to safely hold him? I'm fairly sure that if your kid burglarized your neighbors, no one's going to want to pay for his defense and jail time.

That's how it works in lawless, anarchist societies. The wealthy are protected by their personal guards and bribed judges. The rest of us are on our own.
 
Aimée said:
I have always been curious about this argument that taxes are immoral and should be abolished altogether. How would such a society work? How would you be able to protect the average citizen from being taken advantage of? Greed is also immoral, and an unfettered free market usually doesn't account for that. I am not here to change anyone's mind; I am just asking to see how that would work.
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Remember FreedomForAll? He advocated this sort of thing as well. The problem with libertarianism and their anti-tax schemes is that even if it magically did come true, they'd spend every dime they have on fun stuff. Then when their house catches fire, there will be no $$ to pay firefighters to come rescue them, and put it out. You nailed it with the word "greed." That's what this is really all about.
 
Grind is wrong here. Taxes, or any payment for a service in kind, are not immoral if an agreement is made ahead of time and held to. In the case of the Federal government, that agreement is the Constitution, which defines the scope of the services to be provided. Therefore a tax rate commensurate with those defined services is not immoral.

Grind is also correct here, because the Federal government has ignored the agreement and expanded its scope of services. So the excessive taxation to pay for these unauthorized scope is immoral.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Remember FreedomForAll? He advocated this sort of thing as well. The problem with libertarianism and their anti-tax schemes is that even if it magically did come true, they'd spend every dime they have on fun stuff. Then when their house catches fire, there will be no $$ to pay firefighters to come rescue them, and put it out. You nailed it with the word "greed." That's what this is really all about.
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Yes, I do remember him! He actually considered himself to be an anarchist. He was a really nice guy who was willing to explain his ideology, but he had some strange ideas.

Yes, there are some safety issues that come with espousing societies of this nature. Things like this never work out.
 
Dark Soul said:
Grind is wrong here. Taxes, or any payment for a service in kind, are not immoral if an agreement is made ahead of time and held to. In the case of the Federal government, that agreement is the Constitution, which defines the scope of the services to be provided. Therefore a tax rate commensurate with those defined services is not immoral.

Grind is also correct here, because the Federal government has ignored the agreement and expanded its scope of services. So the excessive taxation to pay for these unauthorized scope is immoral.
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Yes, the constitution would be the contract by which the Federal Government provides those services to us citizens. I like your analogy of the agreement.
 
Dark Soul said:
Grind is wrong here. Taxes, or any payment for a service in kind, are not immoral if an agreement is made ahead of time and held to. In the case of the Federal government, that agreement is the Constitution, which defines the scope of the services to be provided. Therefore a tax rate commensurate with those defined services is not immoral.

Grind is also correct here, because the Federal government has ignored the agreement and expanded its scope of services. So the excessive taxation to pay for these unauthorized scope is immoral.
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By scope of services do you mean things that the govt. does, or taxes?

No data at hand, but I suspect that the majority of the taxes we all pay are state and local taxes rather than federal income taxes. Are those taxes also immoral in your POV?
 
listen op - I respect your views - unlike the views of most around here.

the purpose of government is to protect the rights of the individual. I'm pretty sure you agree with that notion

Have you considered the other angle however? It really does take groups of individuals to protect and preserve government. If you are so dogmatic about the true role of government that very few individuals are interested in protecting and preserving that form of government, you might as well be tilting at windmills.
 
Aimée said:
Yes, I do remember him! He actually considered himself to be an anarchist. He was a really nice guy who was willing to explain his ideology, but he had some strange ideas.
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He did but he was unfailingly civil so it was a pleasure to debate with him regarding his pie-in-the-sky ideas.

Yes, there are some safety issues that come with espousing societies of this nature. Things like this never work out.
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They do not, which is why civilization got rid of them long ago. I'm sure you can still find isolated pockets of small societies that don't have taxation. But how they work is probably far worse to our anti-taxation friends: They practice forms of socialism/communism instead. Ag plots are owned and tended by the community. When hunters return with meat, or when livestock is slaughtered, it's shared among everyone. Ppl get together to help each other build and maintain homes and communal buildings like churches. The Amish are a good example of that, eh?

Somehow, I don't see libertarians liking that kind of culture much either.
 
FartCatcher said:
and even if you want to argue society can't function without it (not proven), that still doesn't make it right. The south at one time couldn't function without slavery, neither could ancient rome or greece. In spite of that, slavery was still immoral. The "society can't function without it" is a bad argument when it comes to the morality of something.

We have no way to opt out. And no smug liberals, even if you move to somalia, the U.S. will still lay claim to your labor and demand you pay your taxes even if you live abroad.

We are slaves to the government. The state lays claim to our labor the way a feudal lord laid claim to the serfs land and some of the crops that resulted from it.

Individuals should be allowed to OPT out. Police and fire can be paid as a fine if you ever need it. You can pay a car tax for roads. Anything not sustainable by the free market should be eliminated.

FUCK TAXES I WILL NEVER CHANGE
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Why not make our military, FBI, and border security part times also. Just pay them when we need them/
 
Aimée said:
Yes, the constitution would be the contract by which the Federal Government provides those services to us citizens. I like your analogy of the agreement.
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The problem is one of usurpation of the agreement. The Founders went to great lengths to make it difficult to make changes without approval by a majority of the people served or a super-majority of their elected representatives. The lust for power of those representatives has proved to me stronger than the People's desire to hold them to the scope of the original agreement. This is most important on the federal level because in a practical sense, individuals have no recourse.

On the state and local level the individual has a recourse. States and municipalities are effectively "products" that one can compare against its competition then decide which to purchase.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
He did but he was unfailingly civil so it was a pleasure to debate with him regarding his pie-in-the-sky ideas.



They do not, which is why civilization got rid of them long ago. I'm sure you can still find isolated pockets of small societies that don't have taxation. But how they work is probably far worse to our anti-taxation friends: They practice forms of socialism/communism instead. Ag plots are owned and tended by the community. When hunters return with meat, or when livestock is slaughtered, it's shared among everyone. Ppl get together to help each other build and maintain homes and communal buildings like churches. The Amish are a good example of that, eh?

Somehow, I don't see libertarians liking that kind of culture much either.
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Absolutely. It never worked out in the end. These communities like the Amish are really small, too. Those ideas would never work for a country as large as this one.
 
Aimée said:
Absolutely. It never worked out in the end. These communities like the Amish are really small, too. Those ideas would never work for a country as large as this one.
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Exactly. It only works in very small groups. Large complex societies need a central, organized govt. Kinda hard to say ours is currently very organized though. lol
 
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