Taxation is immoral. I'll never think differently

Dark Soul said:
The problem is one of usurpation of the agreement. The Founders went to great lengths to make it difficult to make changes without approval by a majority of the people served or a super-majority of their elected representatives. The lust for power of those representatives has proved to me stronger than the People's desire to hold them to the scope of the original agreement. This is most important on the federal level because in a practical sense, individuals have no recourse.

On the state and local level the individual has a recourse. States and municipalities are effectively "products" that one can compare against its competition then decide which to purchase.
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Absolutely. That lust for power is that greed that I was talking about earlier, too. Even when it is held in check, it's still dangerous.

I lucked out and got a good deal where I live!
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
By scope of services do you mean things that the govt. does, or taxes?

No data at hand, but I suspect that the majority of the taxes we all pay are state and local taxes rather than federal income taxes. Are those taxes also immoral in your POV?
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Services are by definition what someone or something does. Taxes are simply a means to pay for them.

In the post that you quoted I specifically narrowed down my argument to the Federal government. In post 19 I commented on states and municipalities and explained why they are different. The individual US citizen has little or no ability to unbind himself from the agreement. As Grind pointed out, even moving offshore, the Feds would track you down for tax payments. The only recourse is to denounce your citizenship, an act that is impractical to the vast majority. On the state and local level however, all one has to do is collect his belongings and move.
 
Aimée said:
LOL! Yes, we may consider it organized chaos! What a mess!
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Makes you wonder if things would be different if broadcasters' licenses were issued only to those media outlets who reported only facts and events, w/o putting a left or right spin on things. Of course *that* would be unworkable since it would require a bureaucrat to make a judgment as to that spin. I do agree with our RW friends who insist that things were better back in "the good old days," when the news was just the news and not news + opinion. Seems like elected ppl really did work for the good of all of us and not just their party's buddies. Speaking of buddies, I hope that your possessive little friend doesn't get jelly that we're having a civilized discussion here. lol
 
Dark Soul said:
Services are by definition what someone or something does. Taxes are simply a means to pay for them.

In the post that you quoted I specifically narrowed down my argument to the Federal government. In post 19 I commented on states and municipalities and explained why they are different. The individual US citizen has little or no ability to unbind himself from the agreement. As Grind pointed out, even moving offshore, the Feds would track you down for tax payments. The only recourse is to denounce your citizenship, an act that is impractical to the vast majority. On the state and local level however, all one has to do is collect his belongings and move.
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Okay. Thanks. Unfortunately as always it's easy to give speeches about how if you don't like it, just move. Often that's unworkable in reality. Only those with portable skills/experience... and money.... have that luxury.

You mentioned offshoring yourself. How does that even work? (Not an argument but a question.) If you continue to receive income from U.S. sources like a pension, social security, etc. can't they still tax that?
 
Aimée said:
Absolutely. That lust for power is that greed that I was talking about earlier, too. Even when it is held in check, it's still dangerous.

I lucked out and got a good deal where I live!
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As a former taxpaying citizen of three northeastern states, it took me a while to compare the "products" that I had been consuming with the products that were available to me. My life and freedoms have vastly improved since I came to my senses and made that informed decision.

That is why the 9th and 10 Amendments to the Federal Constitution are so important. By limiting the scope of the Feds, the consumers of government services can decide for themselves which combination of State and municipality is best for them. Some choose high cost, high services locations, others choose far differently.

Unfortunately, both those Amendments have been ignored as well. The voters have been asleep while their representatives have been slowly stealing their freedom, effectively making them slaves, at least on a partial basis.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Okay. Thanks. Unfortunately as always it's easy to give speeches about how if you don't like it, just move. Often that's unworkable in reality. Only those with portable skills/experience... and money.... have that luxury.

You mentioned offshoring yourself. How does that even work? (Not an argument but a question.) If you continue to receive income from U.S. sources like a pension, social security, etc. can't they still tax that?
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I never said moving is easy. Big decisions never are. Fortunately for me (or unfortunate, depending on perspective) I was unhappy with the location of my upbringing so made it a point to choose a career that was in demand everywhere. Equally if not more so fortunate I chose a like-minded woman. After living in New York State for a decade we spent a year researching, prioritizing or needs and wants, venturing out to confirm our findings, and then finally making a decision.

If you receive income from US sources you will be paying US taxes regardless where you live. You could renounce your citizenship and be on a boat in the middle of the ocean- it doesn't mater.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Makes you wonder if things would be different if broadcasters' licenses were issued only to those media outlets who reported only facts and events, w/o putting a left or right spin on things. Of course *that* would be unworkable since it would require a bureaucrat to make a judgment as to that spin. I do agree with our RW friends who insist that things were better back in "the good old days," when the news was just the news and not news + opinion. Seems like elected ppl really did work for the good of all of us and not just their party's buddies. Speaking of buddies, I hope that your possessive little friend doesn't get jelly that we're having a civilized discussion here. lol
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Absolutely! Getting an opinion with the news is not what we need. "We just want the facts, ma'am!"

Yes, they USED to work for the good of all of us, not just a select few who can pay them the most. LOL!
 
Dark Soul said:
As a former taxpaying citizen of three northeastern states, it took me a while to compare the "products" that I had been consuming with the products that were available to me. My life and freedoms have vastly improved since I came to my senses and made that informed decision.

That is why the 9th and 10 Amendments to the Federal Constitution are so important. By limiting the scope of the Feds, the consumers of government services can decide for themselves which combination of State and municipality is best for them. Some choose high cost, high services locations, others choose far differently.

Unfortunately, both those Amendments have been ignored as well. The voters have been asleep while their representatives have been slowly stealing their freedom, effectively making them slaves, at least on a partial basis.
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I am glad to hear that your life and freedoms have been improved! I still live in the Northeast, but I did find a good deal where I live.

I agree that the 9th and 10th Amendments are vitally important, but that they have been increasingly ignored.
 
Dark Soul said:
I never said moving is easy. Big decisions never are. Fortunately for me (or unfortunate, depending on perspective) I was unhappy with the location of my upbringing so made it a point to choose a career that was in demand everywhere. Equally if not more so fortunate I chose a like-minded woman. After living in New York State for a decade we spent a year researching, prioritizing or needs and wants, venturing out to confirm our findings, and then finally making a decision.

If you receive income from US sources you will be paying US taxes regardless where you live. You could renounce your citizenship and be on a boat in the middle of the ocean- it doesn't mater.
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Do you mind if I ask what state you chose?
 
Aimée said:
I am glad to hear that your life and freedoms have been improved! I still live in the Northeast, but I did find a good deal where I live.

I agree that the 9th and 10th Amendments are vitally important, but that they have been increasingly ignored.
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If you can make a living where you are near the coast that's great. Maine is a lovely state and was on our list of desirable locations. However one or or requirements is that our choice had to be within the travel path of my parents, who used to drive between Cape Cod and Florida annually; the purpose of that was that they could visit their grandchildren.
 
There is NOTHING immoral about taxation...just as there is nothing immoral about civilization or society.

Civilization and society cannot exist without taxation...taxation being the lifeblood of both.

The anarchists and anti-tax people have lots of options...none of which they will ever adopt. They are a laughable lot...who should develop the sense of humor to laugh at themselves. The whole world would be the better for that.
 
Francis doesn't realize that the US government financed itself through tariffs for decades. That's why taxes were never part of the Constitution as originally written.
 
Dark Soul said:
If you can make a living where you are near the coast that's great. Maine is a lovely state and was on our list of desirable locations. However one or or requirements is that our choice had to be within the travel path of my parents, who used to drive between Cape Cod and Florida annually; the purpose of that was that they could visit their grandchildren.
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Yes, and I can still reasonably find work around here. Thank you! It really is a great state. I do love it here. My sister and her husband really want to go to North Carolina, too. That's great that your parents can stop in and see them on their travels through! The kids must love that!
 
Aimée said:
Yes, and I can still reasonably find work around here. Thank you! It really is a great state. I do love it here. My sister and her husband really want to go to North Carolina, too. That's great that your parents can stop in and see them on their travels through! The kids must love that!
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That was then, my mother died a decade ago, my father's in his late 80's and no longer travels, and my kids are adults and moved away. But they got the benefit of seeing each other when they were young and that was important.

Here in NC we got the benefit of efficient state and local government. The NC constitution requires the state to provide education and they interpret that strictly as teachers salaries and student transportation. Local governments are tasked with providing the infrastructure, administration and supplemental teacher pay that tends to be doled out based on merit. To reduce these costs, local governments pool together and consolidation of school districts is very big here.

As a result both my children received an excellent K-12 education. We could choose any of the schools in the county for them to attend, depending on availability. Special needs students had the benefit of large, specialized programs. As a special needs student (HAG or highly academically gifted), my son graduated high school with 39 college credits through the AP system. My daughter as an AG student received special training as well. Then they both went on to State colleges; the tuition costs low enough that we paid out-of-pocket. Both now have great careers and never had any college debt.

In 2016 the large majority GOP legislature and then GOP governor passed NC Promise, which set tuition at three State universities at $500 per semester. This fact is barely known among North Carolinians even, as it has been blacked out by the press.
 
Dark Soul said:
That was then, my mother died a decade ago, my father's in his late 80's and no longer travels, and my kids are adults and moved away. But they got the benefit of seeing each other when they were young and that was important.

Here in NC we got the benefit of efficient state and local government. The NC constitution requires the state to provide education and they interpret that strictly as teachers salaries and student transportation. Local governments are tasked with providing the infrastructure, administration and supplemental teacher pay that tends to be doled out based on merit. To reduce these costs, local governments pool together and consolidation of school districts is very big here.

As a result both my children received an excellent K-12 education. We could choose any of the schools in the county for them to attend, depending on availability. Special needs students had the benefit of large, specialized programs. As a special needs student (HAG or highly academically gifted), my son graduated high school with 39 college credits through the AP system. My daughter as an AG student received special training as well. Then they both went on to State colleges; the tuition costs low enough that we paid out-of-pocket. Both now have great careers and never had any college debt.

In 2016 the large majority GOP legislature and then GOP governor passed NC Promise, which set tuition at three State universities at $500 per semester. This fact is barely known among North Carolinians even, as it has been blacked out by the press.
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Oh, I am so sorry about your Mum. :( I am glad, though, that your kids got to spend those years with her and your dad.

How wonderful about your school systems and their programs! Having such an array of programs means that they get the education that they need, and there isn't much fear of them getting too bored with school.

Whoa! That's amazing! I wish that most states would or could do that with tuition, too. That's such a giant help, and ensures more access to quality education.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
How do you pay for the roads?
How do you pay for utilities?
How do you pay for education?
How do you pay for fire departments?

Grind is just whining about his pet political theory that doesn’t work, has never shown any evidence it can work, and can’t convince enough people it does work to get elected dog catcher so he’s having a temper tantrum in impotent rage. Emphasis on “impotent” as that’s the only word that accurately describes libertarianism.
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This isn’t about libertarianism. Libertarians support some limited amount of taxation. Usually just enough to get force the nap.

Asking how how we do x y z doesn’t chnage the fact it is immoral
 
Aimée said:
I have always been curious about this argument that taxes are immoral and should be abolished altogether. How would such a society work? How would you be able to protect the average citizen from being taken advantage of? Greed is also immoral, and an unfettered free market usually doesn't account for that. I am not here to change anyone's mind; I am just asking to see how that would work.
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I think much of society might have to die off, which is fine. They are being artificially kept alive by taxes.

society would need a complete re working. We’d either have to do some type of voluntary contribution and possibly go back to city states where people would have many options to choose which societies to be a part of. Then they can vote with their feet.
 
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