The Christ Haters Are At It Again Folks.

WillReadmore said:
No, I haven't been there.

Your link is disturbing, of course. But, I don't see it as an argument for spending government money on religious display in the US.
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I see it as a truly frightening portent of what might happen if Islam became truly ensconced in the US. Crosses on Xmas trees will be the least of your worries.

Sent from my Lenovo K52e78 using Tapatalk
 
WillReadmore said:
No, your model of what drives sin is absolutely ridiculous.

For example, a lot of home invasion burglary is driven by addiction. NOBODY involved in that has any pride, and they know that better than anyone else.

You can simplify it further by noting that being sinful is NOT an excuse for making a law. I already pointed out MANY sins for which there is no law - and for which making a law would be preposterous.

You can simplify it by noting that the Bible encourages loving the sinner, offering help in cases where help is needed.

You can simplify it by noting that not everybody shares your religion, and using government to press your religious ideas is not acceptable.
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Gee whiz, did you read any of my prior posts?
"Hate the sin, but love the sinner"??????
And, no "true" Christian is trying to force anything on the government!!!!!
We just hope for the same tolerant treatment toward our beliefs and celebrations as other diverse religious groups hope for from us.

You don't comprehend what I'm saying and you do not know the Bible. That's why I'm trying to explain things very simply. The Word is spiritually discerned which means you have to have the Holy Spirit indwelling to understand.

In the end though, the lesson here is for my Christian brothers and sisters. We live in the world, but we are not of it.

"You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved."
Matthew 10:22

"Do not be conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
Romans 12:2

Every person must obey the leaders of the land. There is no power given but from God, and all leaders are allowed by God. The person who does not obey the leaders of the land is working against what God has done. Anyone who does that will be punished.
Romans 13:1,2

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Gal 5: 19,23
 
Stretch said:
Gee whiz, did you read any of my prior posts?
"Hate the sin, but love the sinner"??????
And, no "true" Christian is trying to force anything on the government!!!!!
We just hope for the same tolerant treatment toward our beliefs and celebrations as other diverse religious groups hope for from us.

You don't comprehend what I'm saying and you do not know the Bible. That's why I'm trying to explain things very simply. The Word is spiritually discerned which means you have to have the Holy Spirit indwelling to understand.

In the end though, the lesson here is for my Christian brothers and sisters. We live in the world, but we are not of it.

"You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved."
Matthew 10:22

"Do not be conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, and ye may prove what is the good and acceptable and perfect will of God."
Romans 12:2

Every person must obey the leaders of the land. There is no power given but from God, and all leaders are allowed by God. The person who does not obey the leaders of the land is working against what God has done. Anyone who does that will be punished.
Romans 13:1,2

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.
Gal 5: 19,23
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I NEVER said that Christians are trying to force something on the government. That's you not being able to read.

What I said is that Christians are trying to USE the government to force their beliefs on ME (and others).

I know the bible quite well.

I would encourage you not to opt out of this world. You ARE part of this world. The point is that you don't accept this world as the valid standard of behavior and belief - and I AGREE with THAT!! I don't accept everything we see in this world as a standard for me to follow, either. It doesn't take a belief in YOUR god to come up with that!!

Again, what I do not agree with is using the government to promote YOUR religion or the religion of any other.

People have every right to be free of religious coercion at the hand of the government.
 
philly rabbit said:
You tend to dislike my ridicule of intolerant secularists that perform their usual vile displays every year at Christmas time which are designed to insult holiday faith based revelers. Living together with different beliefs doesn't include this annual orgy of hate from your people on a significant day that is celebrated throughout the Christian and non Christian world. It is total intolerance so don't give me this living together crap. You're not a bit interested in living together. My illustrations are for those atheists who support the first amendment, not intolerant socialists like you.
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To start with, if you don't like a display of something, don't look at it. Every day on my way home from the office at this time of year I pass a house with a great big "JESUS" in Christmas lights.

Now, I'm not offended by this, nor am I offended by Christmas decorations in general. But there are those to whom such displays could in fact be offensive. So tell us all, Mr. First Amendment, what do you say to THOSE people?

The First Amendment is a sword that cuts both ways. Your intolerance of displays wanting to have Christmas be secular are JUST as violative of the First Amendment as those who don't want you to be able to display Christmas decorations outside your home.

Which is the nice way of saying: You're a hypocritical asshole, and while Jesus and the bible were silent on assholes (if you ignore the admonition against sodomy), it had a LOT to say about hypocrites - which is why you'll be heading to hell, isn't it?

Well, one of the reasons, anyway.
 
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Ralph said:
There is no "circle". God's law's are defined with no ambiguity whatsoever....in the very source of Christian Doctrine. The Holy Bible. There could be no Christianity if there was no historical record like the BIBLE.

God's Law's simply define SIN. Sin is a choice of breaking those defined laws. Law does not make a particular action right or wrong....it just states what currently exists.

Example. The law of gravity. Gravity existed long before someone came up with THE LAW OF GRAVITY. The law of gravity simply explains how gravity works...or the quantifiable potential of gravity. But the law did not create gravity...gravity always has existed.

And....your denial of these Laws that define sin....does not make sin null and void. The sin still exists just as it has always existed. There is no excuse.
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So here we go again, Ralph. You didn't answer this before. Instead you ran from the question.

How can you be sure it's the word of god?

You like, often, to speak of testable, physical evidence. Please provide testable, physical evidence that anything at all is the word of god.

And no, "the bible" is not an acceptable answer, because there are no testable proofs of any of the authors of any book, chapter, verse or word in the bible itself.

As to the "law" of Gravity, it's actually a testable, repeatable phenomenon, which is supported by actual evidence. There are predictable, measurable and observable events which surround the phenomenon.

If I take a ball here on planet Earth and let it go, I KNOW that it's going to fall to the floor, assuming that the ball is not filled with a gas which is lighter than air and of sufficient quantity to keep the ball floating.

You're right when you say that gravity has always existed, and that it possesses a quantifiable potential.

You are wrong, however, when you try to put "god's law" or "sin" on par with gravity, or suggest that laws simply state what already exists.

Let's take the act adultery, to keep with the religious bent of the conversation.

Marriage is, and always has been, a civil contract. Please let's not pretend that's not true. People may get married for any number of reasons - love, political alliance, to gain power, to gold dig (and then overdose and die as a trashy, pathetic train wreck - oh, that Anna Nicole), for protection, to avoid loneliness, insurance, and so on. No matter what the reason, it's been civil law that has made marriage binding.

Without the law that makes marriage, there couldn't be adultery, because people wouldn't be married. So the law makes the sin. It happens all the time.

But let's get back to my question: How can you be sure it's the word of god?

As I mentioned, every time we go through this, you talk about verifiable, testable evidence for your beliefs even though there isn't any. And every time we go through this you run from it, because you can't provide the same kind of evidence from others that you demand from them.

So give us some hard, factual, physical, testable, verifiable and repeatable evidence that it's the word of god.

And please don't run from it this time.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
odd, I always thought it was a matter of gay rights extremists plus partisan political efforts to win elections by whipping up liberal fervor regardless of the will of society.......
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That's because you're a stupid old man.

Let's think about this with logic for a second. Well, I'll think about it with logic. You think about it with those two synapses you've got left.

If the gays didn't have to fight for the same basic human rights the rest of us have, there wouldn't be any reason for them to be extremist, now would there?

It's all well and good for you to talk about having to act in extremis without knowing what it is they're fighting for - but then again, it's actually not all well and good, because you know what they're fighting for.

They're fighting for the right to be treated like us in a country that has a Constitution that guarantees them that right.

Arem't you supposed to be a Christian (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)? Aren't you, as a Christian, supposed to treat others as you wish to be treated? Isn't that what Matthew 7:12 teaches?

But then, you're a hypocrite who plays (badly) at being Christian, so we shouldn't be surprised.
 
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Stretch said:
This is not complicated. We are all born sinners. Salvation is through Christ Jesus.

When we choose to disobey either man's (government) laws or God's laws it is because of pride. In this sense pride does not mean you're proud of what you've done. It means pride in the sense of determining in your heart that you know it's wrong, but you're going to try and get away with it because you DO KNOW it's wrong.

As Christians we are told by God to obey our government's laws unless it conflicts with God's Word.

I don't know how to simplify this any further.
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So let me ask you this, because I've seen this argument over and over, and I've asked this question and NEVER gotten an answer.

Christians try to push legislation that encompasses their agenda and beliefs - like the issue of same-sex marriage or abortion.

If you believe that same-sex marriage is a sin, then the obvious solution is: don't marry someone of the same sex.

But who are you to try and force that belief, through legislation (or frankly by any other means) on others? Why can you not live and let live? How does a gay couple getting married harm you in any way whatsoever?

By the same token, let's say you live on the east coast in Key West, FL, and there is a woman living in the northwesternmost point of Alaska. You two will never meet, you are entirely unaware of each others' existence and will remain so for eternity.

How does whether or not this woman has an abortion affect you in any way whatsoever? Who are you to dictate to her whether or not she can have an abortion? Isn't the obvious answer simply for you not to have an abortion and if someone else does what happens to their soul is up to them?

Who are you to decide and/or dictate to someone else what is wrong for THEM? Especially if they do not share the same religious beliefs as you?
 
Stretch said:
Separation of church and state is about keeping the government out of the church (or synagogue or mosque) not vice versa.
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You are amazingly, astoundingly wrong about that.

It's about both keeping government out of religion and keeping religion out of the government.
 
Stelakh said:
So let me ask you this, because I've seen this argument over and over, and I've asked this question and NEVER gotten an answer.

Christians try to push legislation that encompasses their agenda and beliefs - like the issue of same-sex marriage or abortion.

If you believe that same-sex marriage is a sin, then the obvious solution is: don't marry someone of the same sex.

But who are you to try and force that belief, through legislation (or frankly by any other means) on others? Why can you not live and let live? How does a gay couple getting married harm you in any way whatsoever?

By the same token, let's say you live on the east coast in Key West, FL, and there is a woman living in the northwesternmost point of Alaska. You two will never meet, you are entirely unaware of each others' existence and will remain so for eternity.

How does whether or not this woman has an abortion affect you in any way whatsoever? Who are you to dictate to her whether or not she can have an abortion? Isn't the obvious answer simply for you not to have an abortion and if someone else does what happens to their soul is up to them?

Who are you to decide and/or dictate to someone else what is wrong for THEM? Especially if they do not share the same religious beliefs as you?
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All right....great....

then that women in Alaska murders her husband....why should you care, living in Key West, who are you to decide what is right or wrong for her.....
 
WillReadmore said:
I NEVER said that Christians are trying to force something on the government. That's you not being able to read.

What I said is that Christians are trying to USE the government to force their beliefs on ME (and others).

I know the bible quite well.

I would encourage you not to opt out of this world. You ARE part of this world. The point is that you don't accept this world as the valid standard of behavior and belief - and I AGREE with THAT!! I don't accept everything we see in this world as a standard for me to follow, either. It doesn't take a belief in YOUR god to come up with that!!

Again, what I do not agree with is using the government to promote YOUR religion or the religion of any other.

People have every right to be free of religious coercion at the hand of the government.
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Use the gov, force the gov.......meant the same thing to me, sorry if I misunderstood. Peace! :)
 
Stelakh said:
That's because you're a stupid old man.

Let's think about this with logic for a second. Well, I'll think about it with logic. You think about it with those two synapses you've got left.

If the gays didn't have to fight for the same basic human rights the rest of us have, there wouldn't be any reason for them to be extremist, now would there?

It's all well and good for you to talk about having to act in extremis without knowing what it is they're fighting for - but then again, it's actually not all well and good, because you know what they're fighting for.

They're fighting for the right to be treated like us in a country that has a Constitution that guarantees them that right.

Arem't you supposed to be a Christian (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)? Aren't you, as a Christian, supposed to treat others as you wish to be treated? Isn't that what Matthew 7:12 teaches?

But then, you're a hypocrite who plays (badly) at being Christian, so we shouldn't be surprised.
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sorry....I've never bought the argument that marriage had to be redesigned just to make gays happy......it was never a matter of equality.......it was a matter of forced acceptance of a liberal goal....restructuring society to conform to what liberals wanted it to look like......same thing that happened when they decided they wanted to kill children.....
 
Stelakh said:
To start with, if you don't like a display of something, don't look at it. Every day on my way home from the office at this time of year I pass a house with a great big "JESUS" in Christmas lights.

Now, I'm not offended by this, nor am I offended by Christmas decorations in general. But there are those to whom such displays could in fact be offensive. So tell us all, Mr. First Amendment, what do you say to THOSE people?

The First Amendment is a sword that cuts both ways. Your intolerance of displays wanting to have Christmas be secular are JUST as violative of the First Amendment as those who don't want you to be able to display Christmas decorations outside your home.

Which is the nice way of saying: You're a hypocritical asshole, and while Jesus and the bible were silent on assholes (if you ignore the admonition against sodomy), it had a LOT to say about hypocrites - which is why you'll be heading to hell, isn't it?

Well, one of the reasons, anyway.
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Christmas by the very name is not secular...it's about Christ. Other folks can have all the winter "holiday" celebrations they want. Let everybody celebrate and display whatever they want according their own beliefs or non-beliefs in this country.

I've come to abhor the word "offended" and all the PC baggage that comes with it. Offensiveness can be committed by commission or omission. There's a bunch of activities, behaviors, events and words I disagree with. However, I am never offended...I just don't allow these things to rule my emotions to the point of being offended.
 
WillReadmore said:
What I said is that Christians are trying to USE the government to force their beliefs on ME (and others).
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well that's incredibly stupid.......why would you say that?....the opposite is true.......liberals used the government to enforce their beliefs about killing children and gay marriage on society......
 
Stelakh said:
That's because you're a stupid old man.

Let's think about this with logic for a second. Well, I'll think about it with logic. You think about it with those two synapses you've got left.

If the gays didn't have to fight for the same basic human rights the rest of us have, there wouldn't be any reason for them to be extremist, now would there?

It's all well and good for you to talk about having to act in extremis without knowing what it is they're fighting for - but then again, it's actually not all well and good, because you know what they're fighting for.

They're fighting for the right to be treated like us in a country that has a Constitution that guarantees them that right.

Arem't you supposed to be a Christian (HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!)? Aren't you, as a Christian, supposed to treat others as you wish to be treated? Isn't that what Matthew 7:12 teaches?

But then, you're a hypocrite who plays (badly) at being Christian, so we shouldn't be surprised.
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When Christ walked on the earth he showed love to the sexual sinners, proud greedy rulers, harlots, tax collectors, murderers, thieves, etc. He loved them so much that he shared the plan of salvation with them. He did not come for the well, He came for the sick (of heart).
 
Stretch said:
Christmas by the very name is not secular...it's about Christ. Other folks can have all the winter "holiday" celebrations they want. Let everybody celebrate and display whatever they want according their own beliefs or non-beliefs in this country.

I've come to abhor the word "offended" and all the PC baggage that comes with it. Offensiveness can be committed by commission or omission. There's a bunch of activities, behaviors, events and words I disagree with. However, I am never offended...I just don't allow these things to rule my emotions to the point of being offended.
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spoken like an adult. If I do not want to be offended, i ignore what offends my sensibilities-do i need to buy into everyone else's angst? (no)
 
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