The crisis in cosmology

Cypress

Well-known member
The Story of Our Universe May Be Starting to Unravel
Sept. 2, 2023

Not long after the James Webb Space Telescope began beaming back from outer space its stunning images of planets and nebulae last year, astronomers, though dazzled, had to admit that something was amiss. Eight months later, based in part on what the telescope has revealed, it’s beginning to look as if we may need to rethink key features of the origin and development of the universe.
--------------------------
Paraphrasing:
Data from Webb shows that some galaxies formed very early on, well before the standard model could account for, this was not isolated as recently other occurrences where we see evidence that science’s basic understanding have been inconsistent.

For instance, the universe expands, but the different ways we use to calculate that have never come into synch. The two main ways used to calculate the expansion rate are: measurements of the early universe using such data as the telescope in question is providing, the second way involves measurements of nearby starts, despite decades of effort and increasingly precise data these two methods do not provide a consistent answer and it was exacerbated by Webb telescope suggesting that the model is flawed, not the data.

These serious issues can be serious enough, but updating the model to match with the current data will bring skepticism into the resulting model. Physicists and astronomers begin to believe that the current model may be fundamentally flawed and we may need to rethink basic features of our universe, a conceptual revolution that can change more than just science.
-----------------------------------
From the article:

A potent mix of hard-won data and rarefied abstract mathematical physics, the standard model of cosmology is rightfully understood as a triumph of human ingenuity. It has its origins in Edwin Hubble’s discovery in the 1920s that the universe was expanding — the first piece of evidence for the Big Bang. Then, in 1964, radio astronomers discovered the so-called Cosmic Microwave Background, the “fossil” radiation reaching us from shortly after the universe began expanding. That finding told us that the early universe was a hot, dense soup of subatomic particles that has been continually cooling and becoming less dense ever since.

--------------------
More paraphrasing:

Cosmology becomes more precise accounting for the best data, however in order to get there over the last half a century or so they had to make educated guesses as to the existence of things for which there is no evidence, in science they call this postulating but really it is an attempt to account for what we cannot observe. Dark Matter is one of these things making up ~27% of the universe, and energy with 68%, leaving just 4% or so for normal matter that you and I interact with each day.
Cosmic inflation (Not Bidenflation, but nearly as misunderstood), is another “adjustment” we’ve made to the standard model, in 1981 they devised this to explain paradoxes that arose from an older version of the Big Bang theory, it holds that early on the universe expanded at a faster rate for a fraction of a second just after the Big Bang, this was posited to resolve certain problems but then itself creates others. Notably, such an assumption brings into play the multiverse, an infinite number of universes that we cannot observe.

Science often can find indirect evidence for things we cannot observe, so it isn’t the postulating that is at issue. Such things include hyperdense singularities inside black holes, but with Webb bringing into question the Hubble Constant it begins to bring into question the standard model.

Theories involve with evidence, this is a normal thing. Once a working model is found to be flawed scientist rethink and “remath” until it better matches current evidence. It may be that Webb is telling us that there is evidence of yet another “dark” thing that we cannot observe other than through indirect evidence. However another possibility may be that we need to a radical new theory from the standard model.

Cosmology, unlike other scientific endeavors, cannot be studied from the outside, you cannot put it in a box and experiment. It is the study of “everything”.
---------------------------

From the article again:

Because it is all-encompassing, cosmology forces scientists to tackle questions about the very environment in which science operates: the nature of time, the nature of space, the nature of lawlike regularity, the role of the observers doing the observations.

These rarefied issues don’t come up in most “regular” science (though one encounters similarly shadowy issues in the science of consciousness and in quantum physics). Working so close to the boundary between science and philosophy, cosmologists are continually haunted by the ghosts of basic assumptions hiding unseen in the tools we use — such as the assumption that scientific laws don’t change over time.

But that’s precisely the sort of assumption we might have to start questioning in order to figure out what’s wrong with the standard model. One possibility, raised by the physicist Lee Smolin and the philosopher Roberto Mangabeira Unger, is that the laws of physics can evolve and change over time. Different laws might even compete for effectiveness. An even more radical possibility, discussed by the physicist John Wheeler, is that every act of observation influences the future and even the past history of the universe. (Dr. Wheeler, working to understand the paradoxes of quantum mechanics, conceived of a “participatory universe” in which every act of observation was in some sense a new act of creation.)

It is not obvious, to say the least, how such revolutionary reconsiderations of our science might help us better understand the cosmological data that is flummoxing us. (Part of the difficulty is that the data themselves are shaped by the theoretical assumptions of those who collect them.) It would necessarily be a leap of faith to step back and rethink such fundamentals about our science.

But a revolution may end up being the best path to progress. That has certainly been the case in the past with scientific breakthroughs like Copernicus’s heliocentrism, Darwin’s theory of evolution and Einstein’s relativity. All three of those theories also ended up having enormous cultural influence — threatening our sense of our special place in the cosmos, challenging our intuition that we were fundamentally different than other animals, upending our faith in common sense ideas about the flow of time. Any scientific revolution of the sort we’re imagining would presumably have comparable reverberations in our understanding of ourselves.


The philosopher Robert Crease has written that philosophy is what’s required when doing more science may not answer a scientific question. It’s not clear yet if that’s what’s needed to overcome the crisis in cosmology. But if more tweaks and adjustments don’t do the trick, we may need not just a new story of the universe but also a new way to tell stories about it.


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/02/opinion/cosmology-crisis-webb-telescope.html
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The Story of Our Universe May Be Starting to Unravel
Sept. 2, 2023

Not long after the James Webb Space Telescope began beaming back from outer space its stunning images of planets and nebulae last year, astronomers, though dazzled, had to admit that something was amiss. Eight months later, based in part on what the telescope has revealed, it’s beginning to look as if we may need to rethink key features of the origin and development of the universe.
....


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/02/opinion/cosmology-crisis-webb-telescope.html

From the Board Rules:
_____________________________________
When Posting Copyrighted Material.. All material posted from copyrighted material MUST contain a link to the original work. Proper format is to post the first few paragraphs and then link to the article for the rest. Please don't repost entire articles here.
Title 17, Chapter 1, Section 107 http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html
______________________________________

If you are actually interested, this is a topic related to THEFT. I know that morality and ethics are not that completely clear to you but Fair Use is limited by "the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole".

You posted a HUGE amount of copyrighted material that is currently behind a paywall. I would say you are DANGEROUSLY CLOSE TO STEALING FROM THE AUTHOR.

Just a pro-tip.
 
Interesting to see you arguing with yourself and losing.

Cypress is literally the ONLY person who can discuss things with Cypress. Otherwise he loses his shit because he doesn't know how to discuss topics with others. I wouldn't even bother interrupting him. I just helped him to realize he is close to violating copyright laws. I hope it gets some take-down notice to the mods. THeft is theft. But people like Cypress don't know how IP works.
 
:cuss::cuss: I hope it gets some take-down notice to the mods. THeft is theft. :cuss::cuss:



So, one generally doesn't like to see so many band aids and patches applied to save a theory.

An accelerating universe was explained away with dark energy, something we have no tangible evidence for.

The cosmic flatness problem was explained away by a mind boggling and practically instantaneous exponential expansion on the universe in it's first few nanoseconds of existence. An inflationary hypothesis we have no direct tangible evidence of.

These Webb images of fully formed galaxies early in the universe are baffling and require explanation.

Maybe there is nothing fishy here, and suitable mechanisms will be found that are in accordance with the standard model of cosmology. That's what makes science fun, the questions never end!
 
The Story of Our Universe May Be Starting to Unravel
Sept. 2, 2023

Not long after the James Webb Space Telescope began beaming back from outer space its stunning images of planets and nebulae last year, astronomers, though dazzled, had to admit that something was amiss. Eight months later, based in part on what the telescope has revealed, it’s beginning to look as if we may need to rethink key features of the origin and development of the universe.

Launched at the end of 2021 as a joint project of NASA, the European Space Agency and the Canadian Space Agency, the Webb, a tool with unmatched powers of observation, is on an exciting mission to look back in time, in effect, at the first stars and galaxies. But one of the Webb’s first major findings was exciting in an uncomfortable sense: It discovered the existence of fully formed galaxies far earlier than should have been possible according to the so-called standard model of cosmology.

According to the standard model, which is the basis for essentially all research in the field, there is a fixed and precise sequence of events that followed the Big Bang: First, the force of gravity pulled together denser regions in the cooling cosmic gas, which grew to become stars and black holes; then, the force of gravity pulled together the stars into galaxies.

The Webb data, though, revealed that some very large galaxies formed really fast, in too short a time, at least according to the standard model. This was no minor discrepancy. The finding is akin to parents and their children appearing in a story when the grandparents are still children themselves.

It was not, unfortunately, an isolated incident. There have been other recent occasions in which the evidence behind science’s basic understanding of the universe has been found to be alarmingly inconsistent.

Take the matter of how fast the universe is expanding. This is a foundational fact in cosmological science — the so-called Hubble constant — yet scientists have not been able to settle on a number. There are two main ways to calculate it: One involves measurements of the early universe (such as the sort that the Webb is providing); the other involves measurements of nearby stars in the modern universe. Despite decades of effort, these two methods continue to yield different answers.

At first, scientists expected this discrepancy to resolve as the data got better. But the problem has stubbornly persisted even as the data have gotten far more precise. And now new data from the Webb have exacerbated the problem. This trend suggests a flaw in the model, not in the data.

Two serious issues with the standard model of cosmology would be concerning enough. But the model has already been patched up numerous times over the past half century to better conform with the best available data — alterations that may well be necessary and correct, but which, in light of the problems we are now confronting, could strike a skeptic as a bit too convenient.

Physicists and astronomers are starting to get the sense that something may be really wrong. It’s not just that some of us believe we might have to rethink the standard model of cosmology; we might also have to change the way we think about some of the most basic features of our universe — a conceptual revolution that would have implications far beyond the world of science.

A potent mix of hard-won data and rarefied abstract mathematical physics, the standard model of cosmology is rightfully understood as a triumph of human ingenuity. It has its origins in Edwin Hubble’s discovery in the 1920s that the universe was expanding — the first piece of evidence for the Big Bang. Then, in 1964, radio astronomers discovered the so-called Cosmic Microwave Background, the “fossil” radiation reaching us from shortly after the universe began expanding. That finding told us that the early universe was a hot, dense soup of subatomic particles that has been continually cooling and becoming less dense ever since.

Over the past 60 years, cosmology has become ever more precise in its ability to account for the best available data about the universe. But along the way, to gain such a high degree of precision, astrophysicists have had to postulate the existence of components of the universe for which we have no direct evidence. The standard model today holds that “normal” matter — the stuff that makes up people and planets and everything else we can see — constitutes only about 4 percent of the universe. The rest is invisible stuff called dark matter and dark energy (roughly 27 percent and 68 percent).

Cosmic inflation is an example of yet another exotic adjustment made to the standard model. Devised in 1981 to resolve paradoxes arising from an older version of the Big Bang, the theory holds that the early universe expanded exponentially fast for a fraction of a second after the Big Bang. This theory solves certain problems but creates others. Notably, according to most versions of the theory, rather than there being one universe, ours is just one universe in a multiverse — an infinite number of universes, the others of which may be forever unobservable to us not just in practice but also in principle.

There is nothing inherently fishy about these features of the standard model. Scientists often discover good indirect evidence for things that we cannot see, such as the hyperdense singularities inside a black hole. But in the wake of the Webb’s confounding data about galaxy formation, and the worsening problem with the Hubble constant, you can’t be blamed for starting to wonder if the model is out of joint.

A familiar narrative about how science works is often trotted out at this point to assuage anxieties. It goes like this: Researchers think they have a successful theory, but new data show it is flawed. Courageously rolling up their sleeves, the scientists go back to their blackboards and come up with new ideas that allow them to improve their theory by better matching the evidence.

It’s a story of both humility and triumph, and we scientists love to tell it. And it may be what happens in this case, too. Perhaps the solution to the problems the Webb is forcing us to confront will require only that cosmologists come up with a new “dark” something or other that will allow our picture of the universe to continue to match the best cosmological data.

There is, however, another possibility. We may be at a point where we need a radical departure from the standard model, one that may even require us to change how we think of the elemental components of the universe, possibly even the nature of space and time.

Cosmology is not like other sciences. It’s not like studying mice in a maze or watching chemicals boil in a beaker in a lab. The universe is everything there is; there’s only one and we can’t look at it from the outside. You can’t put it in a box on a table and run controlled experiments on it. Because it is all-encompassing, cosmology forces scientists to tackle questions about the very environment in which science operates: the nature of time, the nature of space, the nature of lawlike regularity, the role of the observers doing the observations.

These rarefied issues don’t come up in most “regular” science (though one encounters similarly shadowy issues in the science of consciousness and in quantum physics). Working so close to the boundary between science and philosophy, cosmologists are continually haunted by the ghosts of basic assumptions hiding unseen in the tools we use — such as the assumption that scientific laws don’t change over time.

But that’s precisely the sort of assumption we might have to start questioning in order to figure out what’s wrong with the standard model. One possibility, raised by the physicist Lee Smolin and the philosopher Roberto Mangabeira Unger, is that the laws of physics can evolve and change over time. Different laws might even compete for effectiveness. An even more radical possibility, discussed by the physicist John Wheeler, is that every act of observation influences the future and even the past history of the universe. (Dr. Wheeler, working to understand the paradoxes of quantum mechanics, conceived of a “participatory universe” in which every act of observation was in some sense a new act of creation.)

It is not obvious, to say the least, how such revolutionary reconsiderations of our science might help us better understand the cosmological data that is flummoxing us. (Part of the difficulty is that the data themselves are shaped by the theoretical assumptions of those who collect them.) It would necessarily be a leap of faith to step back and rethink such fundamentals about our science.

But a revolution may end up being the best path to progress. That has certainly been the case in the past with scientific breakthroughs like Copernicus’s heliocentrism, Darwin’s theory of evolution and Einstein’s relativity. All three of those theories also ended up having enormous cultural influence — threatening our sense of our special place in the cosmos, challenging our intuition that we were fundamentally different than other animals, upending our faith in common sense ideas about the flow of time. Any scientific revolution of the sort we’re imagining would presumably have comparable reverberations in our understanding of ourselves.

The philosopher Robert Crease has written that philosophy is what’s required when doing more science may not answer a scientific question. It’s not clear yet if that’s what’s needed to overcome the crisis in cosmology. But if more tweaks and adjustments don’t do the trick, we may need not just a new story of the universe but also a new way to tell stories about it.


https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/02/opinion/cosmology-crisis-webb-telescope.html

Could be more than one Big Bang.
 
So, one generally doesn't like to see so many band aids and patches applied to save a theory.

An accelerating universe was explained away with dark energy, something we have no tangible evidence for.

The cosmic flatness problem was explained away by a mind boggling and practically instantaneous exponential expansion on the universe in it's first few nanoseconds of existence. An inflationary hypothesis we have no direct tangible evidence of.

These Webb images of fully formed galaxies early in the universe are baffling and require explanation.

Maybe there is nothing fishy here, and suitable mechanisms will be found that are in accordance with the standard model of cosmology. That's what makes science fun, the questions never end!

I wish you had something like ethics.

Do you like to steal stuff from people? Why?
 
Link to an article if you think that's a copy and paste.

I'm not complaining about the content. I'm complaining about the fact he wholesale copied a HUGE chunk of copyrighted material in violation of both US Copyright Law as well as the board rules.

I guess Cypress is just a thief.
 
It doesn't help that I just spent a week in a conference with a bunch of intellectual property attorneys. So I'm a bit more sensitized than usual to violations of US law.

Well at least he provided a link. I don't recall Damocles strictly enforcing the rule. He isn't the only one who broke that rule.
 
Well at least he provided a link. I don't recall Damocles strictly enforcing the rule. He isn't the only one who broke that rule.

Oh, the link was absolutely fantastic. I'm glad he provided it, but it doesn't keep it from being a violation of 17USC's "fair use" subsection. It is outside of "Fair Use" to take HUGE swaths of the text. It actually could get the forum into a lot of trouble. Especially given, as you note, how common it is.

I hope Damocles at least has Cypress cut back to a couple of paragraphs. That's more legally defensible.

Now I gotta stop as this isn't related to the OP. I'll give it a day and then I'll go ahead and report it to the IPRC.
 
Interesting to see you arguing with yourself and losing.
At least he's not a monarchist hiding out in a Third World shithole under a pedophile king. LOL

How's your revolution to depose King Rama X going in Chonburi?

#whydoweneedaking #กษัตริย์มีไว้ทําไม

"If you meet your king on the road, kill him!" :laugh:
 
The “crisis in cosmology” is pure exaggeration

There are a few clues that the Universe isn't completely adding up. Even so, the standard model of cosmology holds up stronger than ever.

https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/crisis-cosmology-exaggerated-lie/
Good.

From the link:

For right now, at least, the “standard model of cosmology” is relatively simple and straightforward. Sometimes known as “ΛCDM” (for Λ, a cosmological constant, plus CDM, or cold dark matter) to some, it contends that our Universe, as we know it:

  • began with a hot Big Bang some 13.8 billion years ago,
  • that itself was set up and preceded by a period of cosmic inflation,
  • where the initial conditions were a scale-invariant spectrum of density fluctuations atop an otherwise uniform background,
  • where the Universe was filled with matter, energy, and radiation,
  • where it began expanding and cooling very quickly, but then was slowed by gravitation over time,
  • which led to the Universe we observe today: full of stars, galaxies, galaxy clusters and cosmic voids,
  • and is now made up of ~5% normal matter, 27% dark matter, and 68% dark energy,
 
I'm not complaining about the content. I'm complaining about the fact he wholesale copied a HUGE chunk of copyrighted material in violation of both US Copyright Law as well as the board rules.

I guess Cypress is just a thief.

Report it to Damo if you have a problem.
 
It doesn't help that I just spent a week in a conference with a bunch of intellectual property attorneys. So I'm a bit more sensitized than usual to violations of US law.
^^^
First he claims he has a PhD in "geochem" and now he's an expert on both copyright law and patent law. :rofl2:
 
^^^
First he claims he has a PhD in "geochem" and now he's an expert on both copyright law and patent law. :rofl2:

Did I claim to be an expert on these things? Or did I just say I was at a conference with a bunch of attorneys?

I assure you, Helicopter Steve, that I am NOT an expert on copyright law. I can, however, read.

YOU sure don't read so good do you, Helicopter Steve?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top