The evolution of complex life

[Cypress]

Not an expert, but I agree with that; all matter follows the natural laws of the Universe. Atoms were set in motion after the Big Bang and have been bouncing around according to Natural Law ever since. The main variable is how lifeforms alter those motions. Mankind builds dams and uses kinetic weapons to alter the course of asteroids.

I looked at some notes I took on a video I watched on chaos theory -- chaotic systems behave deterministically in the short run, they are unpredictable in the long run because of the butterfly effect, but some kind of underlying order continues to persist in the system because the system obeys a mathmatical concept called a strange attractor.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

I looked at some notes I took on a video I watched on chaos theory -- chaotic systems behave deterministically in the short run, they are unpredictable in the long run because of the butterfly effect, but some kind of underlying order continues to persist in the system because the system obeys a mathmatical concept called a strange attractor.

I'm certain it's logical at some point. We just can't see the larger picture such as how quarks and dark matter fit into the picture.

There's still the fundamental question of the origin of life. Life is the variable that moves inanimate objects out of their natural position. The root of a tree pushes rocks contrary to the laws of gravity. Mankind blows up mountains and builds roads through them.

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Talking about catalysts is just a fancy way of saying we have no idea how it all happened. Catalyst in this context is so nebulous as to be practically useless.

The physical forces did not appear at the instant of inflation. They supposedly froze out of the grand unified force in the first nanoseconds of the inflation.

For all I know the grand unified force is eternal. Or maybe not. As far as I know there is no guarantee that the universe couldn't have existed eternally at the Planck scale of space and time, before begining it's inflationary phase at 13.7 billion years before present.

you folks tend to overlook the simplest implications of what you believe.....either things happened spontaniously or they were caused.....and natural laws cannot be the answer as they are a constant force, they only change in reaction......

 

[Dutch Uncle]

you folks tend to overlook the simplest implications of what you believe.....either things happened spontaniously or they were caused.....and natural laws cannot be the answer as they are a constant force, they only change in reaction......

Lemme guess.....you believe Satan did it.

 

[Melchizedek = Michael]

I am somewhere in between you and PMP.

I doubt a guy in a white robe waved a magic wand and created cells.

On the other hand, I don't believe in minimizing and downplaying how much knowledge we lack about abiogenesis. The fact that lipids and sugar molecules exist in the environment tells us almost nothing useful about how self organizing complex cells capable of storing, replicating, and transmitting information came into being . The origin of life is one of the great unresolved scientific mysteries.

Calling life an emergent property is just a fancy way of saying we don't know how it happened.

80 years of laboratory experiment have not yet shown how nucleotides can link together into a stable genetic polymer under realistic environmental conditions.

If we ever get nucleotides to link together into some kind of stable RNA structure, most researchers will probably agree we are on the right track to discovering the origin life

"Doubt" ing Thomas

 

[Melchizedek = Michael]

I looked at some notes I took on a video I watched on chaos theory -- chaotic systems behave deterministically in the short run, they are unpredictable in the long run because of the butterfly effect, but some kind of underlying order continues to persist in the system because the system obeys a mathmatical concept called a strange attractor.

The Big Bang is a reaction to Satan's rebellion!
The creation of the universe isn't an action,but a reaction.

 

[Cypress]

you folks tend to overlook the simplest implications of what you believe.....either things happened spontaniously or they were caused.....and natural laws cannot be the answer as they are a constant force, they only change in reaction......

Already addressed ad nauseum -->

I'll leave you to cloak yourself in a veneer of certainty.

I myself don't know if the physical laws are eternal; whether they required some unknown catalyst; or whether they just randomly and spontaneously popped into existence with the mathematical scaffolding and numerical constants they have now.

I don't have the data or knowledge to say one way or the other, that's the honest and responsible scientific position.

It's an open question, and all three of these solutions have their own problems as well as their own strengths.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

I looked at some notes I took on a video I watched on chaos theory -- chaotic systems behave deterministically in the short run, they are unpredictable in the long run because of the butterfly effect, but some kind of underlying order continues to persist in the system because the system obeys a mathmatical concept called a strange attractor.

We learned all about chaos theory and strange attractors in Jurassic Park. lol

 

[Cypress]

We learned all about chaos theory and strange attractors in Jurassic Park. lol

I didn't like how it made paleontologists look like they had never even heard of chaos theory!

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Lemme guess.....you believe Satan did it.

Dutch Perry-winkle takes his best shot and falls flat on his face.....

 

[PostmodernProphet]

Already addressed ad nauseum -->

the problem isn't that you'll wait and see.....the problem is you think stagnation of thought is science.....

 

[Saint Guinefort]

"Man will never fly" - Anon

When Apollo 1 burned on the pad, in the investigation and testimony that followed, it was said the cause of the fire was "a failure of imagination".

It's one thing to say "We can't do that now". It's a failure of imagination to say, "We'll never be able to do that".

But if the calculations require more bits to complete than there are atoms in the universe there is no way to do this.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Unless I'm not remembering physics 101 correctly, all radioactive decay is mediated by the weak force.

Might want to check that. I believe the weak force only mediates beta decay.

I believe alpha may be related to the strong and electromagnetic interactions. This is, to be honest, not my area. The involvement of the weak makes sense for beta since it directly relates to the n[sub]o[/sub]-->p[sup]+[/sup] + e[sup]-[/sup], but I am not sure if it also explains gamma which is simply an energy level change within the nucleus.

Again, radiochemistry is not my area.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

I didn't like how it made paleontologists look like they had never even heard of chaos theory!

I suspect that scene was done for the audience rather than the characters.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

Dutch Perry-winkle takes his best shot and falls flat on his face.....

So rather than discuss the subject matter like an adult, since you know nothing of it, you resort to childish gossip. Figures. lol

 

[Cypress]

I'm certain it's logical at some point. We just can't see the larger picture such as how quarks and dark matter fit into the picture.

There's still the fundamental question of the origin of life. Life is the variable that moves inanimate objects out of their natural position. The root of a tree pushes rocks contrary to the laws of gravity. Mankind blows up mountains and builds roads through them.

Even at the level of a cell, life is really atonishing. Anyone who paid attention in biology class couldn't have failed to be impressed at the infinite complexity, the self organization, the choreographed dance of metabolism, function, and information-storing, replication, and transmission of the eukaryotic cell.

I heard a particle physicist once say that understanding particle physics is substantially easier than getting a real grasp on biological systems.

 

[Saint Guinefort]

There's still the fundamental question of the origin of life. Life is the variable that moves inanimate objects out of their natural position. The root of a tree pushes rocks contrary to the laws of gravity. Mankind blows up mountains and builds roads through them.

Life isn't the only variable that moves things around. Ice pushes rocks around and contrary to gravity. Water moves inanimate objects out of their "natural positions".

 

[Saint Guinefort]

Even at the level of a cell, life is really atonishing. Anyone who paid attention in biology class couldn't have failed to be impressed at the infinite complexity, the self organization, the choreographed dance of metabolism, function, intricate protein creation, and information-storing, replication, and transmission of the eukaryotic cell.

I heard a particle physicist once say that understanding particle physics is substantially easier than getting a real grasp on biological systems.

In my biochemistry class we were allowed to bring "single sheets" on which we could write any of the biochemical cycles we wanted to use as a cheat sheet on tests. Obviously some of the sheets were larger than others.

No one is denying that life is chemically and physically complex and interesting. What I've been arguing against is the concept that life is somehow a significant and nearly incomprehensible change from non-life. Indeed they are very much alike in technical aspect. It actually kind of helps to demystify the concepts in biochemistry so that it can be discussed more dispassionately.

 

[Dutch Uncle]

But if the calculations require more bits to complete than there are atoms in the universe there is no way to do this.

"Failure of imagination". You and I are agreed that the ability isn't within our grasp. You say it will never happen, I'm not so certain.

 

[Cypress]

I suspect that scene was done for the audience rather than the characters.

For sure! I am just sensitive to the implication that earth scientists are an inferior brand of scientist who dodged math classes at every opportunity!