The Plan, not a "theory"
- Thread starter Litmus
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Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Sure, I can go over it again... in a totalitarian system, people don't have the right to work or not work, everyone works. They don't have unemployment in China, they don't have welfare or food stamps, people have to work to live. If they aren't working, they are dead and thus, can't produce. The only way for them to increase production is to reproduce.
Now, to the bargaining chip for the future... If you bought a house last week, and you've only made one payment on it, with very little down, and you go to the bank to get an equity loan, the bank has no motivation to give you any money, as you have no equity built up in the house. You can threaten the bank, tell them you will take your business elsewhere, and they will simply say... Buh-Bye! Now, in 20 years, you can go to the very same bank, and get a substantial equity loan on the house, the bank is then motivated to give you money, because you have built up equity. The same thing is true with trade and business, it takes time to develop 'equity' and establish some level of trust with China, as well as an ever-increasing mutual financial investment and tie. In 20 years, those entanglements will act as a motivating factor for China, whereas now, there isn't enough 'equity' built up, and it simply doesn't matter to them, they are not motivated by the potential loss of US trade, just as the bank would not be motivated by the loss of your business in the previous example.
Now, explain for us, how sticking our heads in the sand and pretending China doesn't exist, is ever going to change the human condition in China? Explain to us how we are supposed to leverage the Chinese to change, when we have nothing to motivate them with? Explain how US workers will have more jobs in the future making $4 widgets for export, when the Chinese are flooding the European markets with their $2 widgets? And explain why your pea-brain idea is better than the current US trade policy, in all the areas we've discusses, human rights, national security, and economics?
I want you to EXPLAIN these things in specific detail, not simply throw out some liberal platitudes and prance around on your moral high horse. Anyone can do that! I could sit here and bitch about the conditions in China too! I could make the argument that we should simply refuse to trade with any nation that trades with China! I could say, the US would be better off only trading with CHRISTIAN nations, and no one else! People can SAY a lot of shit... it's providing a reasonable argument for what you are saying, that really matters! So, let's hear it... give us your profound explanation, O' Wise One!
Litmus
Verified User
Not everyone in china is a slave, but with increased demands the creation of new slaves by whatever means is incentivized. if it was true that everyone in china was a slave you would be correct, but that 's not true. It could still be worse. They've haven't maxed out on inhumanity quite yet, but they're driven to increase it with the increase demand our orders creates.
It is not fixed; EVERYONE is not a slave, yet. IS that your actual goal?
Once again a difference. Prison labor in the US is voluntary on many levels. Those who work with the plates do so because they don't want to stare at walls all day, not because they are forced to.I can refuse to trade with companies who use prison or slave labor
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No ya can't Damo, your registration plate on your vehicle is prison made
But is that a company or a corporation or both ?
Now, were they sent to prison because of political issues then were forced to make Nikes or something I'd agree with this particular similarity, but since they are quite different in actual effect it becomes a silly comparison on its face. A nation could refuse to allow trade with companies that use slave labor and/or forced prison labor. Saying that it is an all or nothing approach, that using the carrot rather than the stick never worked simply laughs in the face of history....
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
if it was true that everyone in china was a slave you would be correct, but that 's not true.
Really? Gee wiz, I must have a totally different concept of totalitarianism, because I wasn't aware that some people in Communist Red China had freedoms! Well... if THIS is the case, we need not worry, if some people have tasted freedom, it will spread like wildfire! In just a short time, China will be a legitimate democracy!
Again, from the history books to the encyclopedia, China is a totalitarian Communist country, the people have no freedom, they do not decide when and where to work, the government tells them. No one in China, aside from the political class, sits on their ass waiting for the government to take care of them, they are ALL workers for the COMMUNist government!!!!
Your liberal vision requires you to believe the Chinese people are just like you and I, only they have a mean old government interrupting their personal lives! You are about as full of shit as a Christmas turkey, and you've demonstrated it well in this thread. None of your arguments meet the test of logic or common sense, when it comes to addressing the problems of human rights in China, national security, foreign relations, global economics, or any damn thing else! It's another pathetic attempt to tug at the heartstrings of liberals, and drum up faux concerns about problems you simply wish to ignore.
Speaking of 'ignore'... I notice.... no EXPLANATION on your part... yet again!
Really? Gee wiz, I must have a totally different concept of totalitarianism, because I wasn't aware that some people in Communist Red China had freedoms! Well... if THIS is the case, we need not worry, if some people have tasted freedom, it will spread like wildfire! In just a short time, China will be a legitimate democracy!
Again, from the history books to the encyclopedia, China is a totalitarian Communist country, the people have no freedom, they do not decide when and where to work, the government tells them. No one in China, aside from the political class, sits on their ass waiting for the government to take care of them, they are ALL workers for the COMMUNist government!!!!
Your liberal vision requires you to believe the Chinese people are just like you and I, only they have a mean old government interrupting their personal lives! You are about as full of shit as a Christmas turkey, and you've demonstrated it well in this thread. None of your arguments meet the test of logic or common sense, when it comes to addressing the problems of human rights in China, national security, foreign relations, global economics, or any damn thing else! It's another pathetic attempt to tug at the heartstrings of liberals, and drum up faux concerns about problems you simply wish to ignore.
Speaking of 'ignore'... I notice.... no EXPLANATION on your part... yet again!
Litmus
Verified User
Nobody has constitutional rights, but NOT EVERYONE is a prisoner slave maxed out on capacity. Can you understand the difference? Anyone could be made a slave at any moment, at the government's whim basically, to accomodate increased production demands, but not everyone is a slave yet. Can you get it, Corky?
You're also ignoring the dimension of time. even if everyone were a slave, which they aren't, more and continued orders would profitize the expansion of the slavery going forward in time.
Let's retrace your logical stack of dysfunction. You're saying everyone's a slave, so you can say their production is maxed, so you can say our orders don't increase their business. You're screwed in the head.
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uscitizen
Villified User
Is the war on drugs a political issue Damo ?
Umm I think cunningham goes to prison on a political issue.
Where is the dividing line ?
It can be. Which still does not address the issue of the fact that they are not forced into such labor. And there would be the dividing line.
uscitizen
Villified User
But some are forced into prison on political grounds....
And some states do not even pay the inmates for their work. some do, which is good it allows them to build a stake to help when they are released.
Throw a broke criminal out on the street and chances are they will be back.
As to whether they are forced or not, well that is likely to be a matter of interpretation.
And some states do not even pay the inmates for their work. some do, which is good it allows them to build a stake to help when they are released.
Throw a broke criminal out on the street and chances are they will be back.
As to whether they are forced or not, well that is likely to be a matter of interpretation.
Once again, it depends entirely on what you call a political reason. Writing a book endorsing a free society is clearly a political issue. Muling drugs, not quite so clear.
Who in the US has been imprisoned for writing a book endorsing a free society?
Attempting to equate these two and then saying that it is slave labor when it isn't is simply political exaggeration for effect. It is clearly not the same thing if they have the choice whether or not to work in that area, which they do or it becomes "cruel and unusual" punishment.
Because we choose to convict for drug crimes. As I said, those are clearly not so easily determined to be only political. There are many arguments that they make for it. Those who use rob people for money, etc.
Pretending that this makes the difference and therefore one cannot buy license plates is flatly laughable. They choose to work in that section, it isn't slave labor.
Nope. When was the last time you were in a Chinese prison for writing a book and forced to make t-shirts to sell to Americans for the profit of the government?
uscitizen
Villified User
Never been in one, spent some stickade time though 
So how are either one of us knowledgeable enough to decide what is truth and what is fiction about china and her psion system ?
One thing is certain it will not be up to our specs as the rest of China is not either.
Israel locks up several political prisoners....Is there any racial bias involved here ?
So how are either one of us knowledgeable enough to decide what is truth and what is fiction about china and her psion system ?
One thing is certain it will not be up to our specs as the rest of China is not either.
Israel locks up several political prisoners....Is there any racial bias involved here ?
Nope. I disagree with it there too and think that we shouldn't trade with companies that would use them as slave labor at the time that they are political prisoners.Never been in one, spent some stickade time though
So how are either one of us knowledgeable enough to decide what is truth and what is fiction about china and her psion system ?
One thing is certain it will not be up to our specs as the rest of China is not either.
Israel locks up several political prisoners....Is there any racial bias involved here ?
I would also state unequivocally that they don't get our aid without changes in human rights issues. Therefore I would never be elected President as that issue seems to be one that the populace disagrees with me.
Oh, and we can read those books and hear tales of those who actually were prisoners there to get a good idea of what happens in Chinese prisons.
uscitizen
Villified User
I wish that Republican bill of several years ago had passed. It was going to cut off aid to countries with human rights problems. Repubs puched it hard till it was discovered that it would cut off aid to Israel, the bill died really fast after that.
Religion before human rights.
Religion before human rights.
Litmus
Verified User
What are you, some kind of jew hating nazi?
You should know better than to point out the jew beaten mindset of these self hating white neocons. Baby boomers are the worst. Completely brainwashed.
Dixie - In Memoriam
New member
Anyone could be made a slave at any moment, at the government's whim basically, to accomodate increased production demands...
Oh sure, they just go down to the town square and round up a few of the unemployed deadbeats with nothing to do, right? Or maybe they pull people away from realizing their Chinese Dream of running their own Chinese Laundry? Yeah, I am sure there are tons of people just sitting around China with nothing else to do except be made slaves by the Government! And if it weren't for Evil Ol' Uncle Sam, these poor people would be completely left alone by the Government, because they don't really need the extra production now, and had rather let these poor people live their lives in peace and do as they please. That makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you explained it to me!
Oh sure, they just go down to the town square and round up a few of the unemployed deadbeats with nothing to do, right? Or maybe they pull people away from realizing their Chinese Dream of running their own Chinese Laundry? Yeah, I am sure there are tons of people just sitting around China with nothing else to do except be made slaves by the Government! And if it weren't for Evil Ol' Uncle Sam, these poor people would be completely left alone by the Government, because they don't really need the extra production now, and had rather let these poor people live their lives in peace and do as they please. That makes a lot of sense. I'm glad you explained it to me!