The Plan, not a "theory"

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Now that I have shown you to be an absolute slanderous lying judgemental ass, and you have, yet again, reeled off another one of your insulting rants about me, I will put you on ignore, and never speak to you again. It's been fun, Goodbye.

 

[Litmus]

It's true in every aspect.

Empty repudiation # 10034

Yes you have. You conceded that we cannot beat china, ever, and that all we can do is appease and hope for the best.

No, that is what you concede, that we can't beat China, and we must take the moral high ground, and oppose them. We must return to ignoring the problems in China and washing our moral hands of it completely. That is your position, mine is a position of effecting eventual political change in China, through free trade.

So when will we start demanding they stop slavery? After how many billions?

With my position, there is no appeasement, we are not trading with China to give the Chinese anything, or capitulate to something they demand from us or even want. There can't be any appeasement, when there is nothing to appease. You want to view it as such, but here again, you can't support your argument with relevant fact.

You're an appeaser because you feel we could not beat them in a real geopolitical face off, so you seek to placate them and hope they will change. This is appeasement AND idiocy too.

No. You just keep claiming it's true. ALl I see is the continued profitablity of human slavery.

I've not claimed anything to be true, I have presented a logical premise to you, and asked you to refute it, or find the flaw in it, and you can't. It makes logical sense that we can effect more of a political change in China, with some means to leverage the Chinese government, than isolating ourselves and alienating the Chinese further.

No, it doesn't make sense. when they can prosper in their their current behavior patterns , there is zero pressure to change.

It makes more logical sense to absorb the Chinese goods into the world market, so that we have stability in the global market, as opposed to getting our brains kicked in trying to compete with them for the European trade. Whether we look at this from human rights, or economics, it makes better sense for us to engage the Chinese in diplomacy, foster a strong and mutual trade alliance, and eventually use that mutual interest to pressure for political reforms.

But actually, you're only looking at it from an economic point of view. You give lip service to "effecting change" but you have no actual plan to do that. It's a lie.

Exactly. You've conceded defeat and see cozying up to the dictators as the only strategy. You're a coward, and an appeaser. Why do you keep arguing with me when I describe you accurately?

No, I have repeatedly asked for you to articulate your alternative options, and you really don't have any. No one has conceded any defeat, the game has just begun from my perspective, you are still in the locker room, hoping to have the game cancelled so you can go home and lock your doors. Don't call me a coward!

You are a coward. "we can't beat them" is the premise of your world view. That's cowardly.

It goes slightly deeper than the neocons, but they're the main advocates of the NWO at this point. Libs are too, in different ways.

Yes, and then there are the Illuminati... invisible little men from outer space... men in black, with little devices that wipe out your memory... they meet in a secret underground location at area 51... where they keep the alien bodies... and dick cheney goes when they say he is in an undisclosed location.... yes... they are all out to get us man... we can't trust anyone... they are listening to us at this very moment... shhh...

*whispers* i think we should stop talking about them now, or we might be putting our safety in jeopardy... we wouldn't want to end up like ron brown or vince foster, would we?

Hyperbolic mockery doesn't help you.

 

[Cancel7]

The new world order is going to be great! Seriously, has anyone seen the brochure? You get a free time-share in Florida and it's not like the 'other' time-shares either, you can count on that.

This is the best comment on this thread. I love it.

The rest of the thread is making my head spin. I can't follow a debate between Dixie and someone who is actually rational, there is no way I can follow this one.

 

[Litmus]

This is the best comment on this thread. I love it.

The rest of the thread is making my head spin. I can't follow a debate between Dixie and someone who is actually rational, there is no way I can follow this one.

Yeah. I liked that too! lol. Said is a real firecracker!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I can't follow a debate between Dixie and someone who is actually rational, there is no way I can follow this one.

Yeah, I know, it's hard enough for a dingbat liberal to follow my debates with rational people, it must be damn near impossible to follow my debate with a lunatic. Good point!

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

You are a coward. "we can't beat them" is the premise of your world view. That's cowardly.

Actually, that would be YOUR view. You can't see, for the life of you, how free trade with China can eventually effect a change through diplomatic pressure. You don't think it possible. In fact, you really offer no solution to the human rights problem in China, you just want to ignore it and wash your hands of it, and pretend it isn't happening. This is precisely because you don't believe we can beat them, short of going to war. I happen to believe we can beat them, and without firing a shot. Through political pressure, with billions of dollars in trade at stake, and a mutual interest to leverage the Chinese with, a reform of the conditions in China is possible. Your solution is to take away something they never had, and hope it persuades them. The problem is, that hasn't worked for the past 100 years with China, and it won't ever work, there is no logical reason for it to work.

Now, you want to reel off another insulting hate-filled rant against me, that's fine, I can deal with it, but you are not making any points in the debate, you are not articulating any sort of credible viewpoint, and you have not refuted any point I have made so far.

 

[Litmus]

You are a coward. "we can't beat them" is the premise of your world view. That's cowardly.

Actually, that would be YOUR view. You can't see, for the life of you, how free trade with China can eventually effect a change through diplomatic pressure. You don't think it possible. In fact, you really offer no solution to the human rights problem in China, you just want to ignore it and wash your hands of it, and pretend it isn't happening. This is precisely because you don't believe we can beat them, short of going to war. I happen to believe we can beat them, and without firing a shot. Through political pressure, with billions of dollars in trade at stake, and a mutual interest to leverage the Chinese with, a reform of the conditions in China is possible. Your solution is to take away something they never had, and hope it persuades them. The problem is, that hasn't worked for the past 100 years with China, and it won't ever work, there is no logical reason for it to work.


Now, you want to reel off another insulting hate-filled rant against me, that's fine, I can deal with it, but you are not making any points in the debate, you are not articulating any sort of credible viewpoint, and you have not refuted any point I have made so far.

I've won this debate. You just can't see that. I don't see how profitting from slave labor will end it, nobody does but you brainwashed neocon automatons. I don't think your "diplomacy" will be effective. It never is.

 

[Litmus]

"Who are you, AssHatZombie?!"

I'm like noone you're met before, ma'am. You need a lift?

 

[Damocles]

I've won this debate. You just can't see that. I don't see how profitting from slave labor will end it, nobody does but you brainwashed neocon automatons. I don't think your "diplomacy" will be effective. It never is.

Which is why I suggested trading only with the companies in the new free trade zones, their experiment in actual capitalism where the citizens own the factories and the employees are paid. Enforcing right action with positive result is always better than punitive. Negative reinforcement tends to work best if the recipient is under 5, it didn't work well in the past, it won't in the future.

 

[Litmus]

Which is why I suggested trading only with the companies in the new free trade zones, their experiment in actual capitalism where the citizens own the factories and the employees are paid. Enforcing right action with positive result is always better than punitive.

No, it's not. Punitive often works.

Negative reinforcement tends to work best if the recipient is under 5, it didn't work well in the past, it won't in the future.

This is just unsubstianted speculations and negativism. It's just your way of warping minds into thinking there are no other options. Yours is not the only way. And in fact, your way is bad and shitty.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

I've won this debate. You just can't see that.

Oh, I can see where you believe you've won the debate, I am just having difficulty finding the evidence to support that notion here. You have done a swell job of repudiating me personally, and calling me a bunch of names because you disagree with me. The pinheads are proud of you, no doubt!

I'm really trying hard to see your points, but you really haven't made any. You keep insisting that we can't trade with China because of the human rights issue, but you fail to explain how our isolationist policy is going to effect a change. If I tell you I have a better plan for something, it requires that I show you how my plan is better, I can't simply repudiate your plan and proclaim mine better, it doesn't work that way in the real world.

I'm starting to think you are Agnosticus Caesar, he is the only other hard head I've ever known, who establishes himself as the victor of an argument based on a complete lack of substance and armed with only his profound pinhead wisdom... and continues to argue from that perspective! It's as if we are all to genuflect toward you and accept your word as holy or something! No proof, no evidence to support your outrageous claims... Because you said it, makes it so! We are not to question your profound wisdom, we are just supposed to take your word for it, that you are smarter than the rest of us, and what you say has relevance, just because it came out of your profound and wise mouth!

 

[Litmus]

I've won this debate. You just can't see that.

Oh, I can see where you believe you've won the debate, I am just having difficulty finding the evidence to support that notion here.

Start at the beginning. THere's no better place.

You have done a swell job of repudiating me personally, and calling me a bunch of names because you disagree with me. The pinheads are proud of you, no doubt!

And don't forget the incisive pinpointing of the distortions in your thinking.

I'm really trying hard to see your points, but you really haven't made any. You keep insisting that we can't trade with China because of the human rights issue, but you fail to explain how our isolationist policy is going to effect a change.

My main concern is not allowing the totalitarian ethos to spread to the west through collusion with it, and world financial instutitutions putting us out of business and into a state of dependance by purposefully manipulating currency and market conditions to achieve that end.

If I tell you I have a better plan for something, it requires that I show you how my plan is better, I can't simply repudiate your plan and proclaim mine better, it doesn't work that way in the real world.

I believe your plan can do nothing other than actively make the situation worse. In that condition, I choose other policies. I believe they are superior. Your belief in chinese strength over and above american strength is warping your ability to see other options. You are a traitorous appeaser, don't forget.

I'm starting to think you are Agnosticus Caesar, he is the only other hard head I've ever known, who establishes himself as the victor of an argument based on a complete lack of substance and armed with only his profound pinhead wisdom... and continues to argue from that perspective! It's as if we are all to genuflect toward you and accept your word as holy or something! No proof, no evidence to support your outrageous claims... Because you said it, makes it so! We are not to question your profound wisdom, we are just supposed to take your word for it, that you are smarter than the rest of us, and what you say has relevance, just because it came out of your profound and wise mouth!

That doesn't sound like me, because my victory was real.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

in you mind alone, it was real.

For the record... you have made no valid point.

You can't explain how isolationism will effect any change in China policy.
You can't explain how returning to this policy will produce different results.
You can't offer any solution to the problem with your strategy.
You can't refute common sense and logic I've presented.
You can't even articulate your points without using sleaze and slime on me.

You've not won anything, you've not made a single point, you haven't refuted a single point, and all you essentially have, is insults, put-downs, and over-blown conspiratorial theories you've obtained from some liberal kook blog site. You expect everyone to just accept your word for things, you haven't backed up a thing you've said with facts or evidence to support it, and you simply repudiate anything that disagrees with your wrongheadedness. You are stubborn, arrogant, and rude, and I have spent enough time on this with you, so I will let it stand at that, and you can go on thinking you won the debate if you like, but the record speaks for itself here.

 

[Litmus]

in you mind alone, it was real.

For the record... you have made no valid point.

You can't explain how isolationism will effect any change in China policy.
You can't explain how returning to this policy will produce different results.
You can't offer any solution to the problem with your strategy.
You can't refute common sense and logic I've presented.
You can't even articulate your points without using sleaze and slime on me.

You've not won anything, you've not made a single point, you haven't refuted a single point, and all you essentially have, is insults, put-downs, and over-blown conspiratorial theories you've obtained from some liberal kook blog site. You expect everyone to just accept your word for things, you haven't backed up a thing you've said with facts or evidence to support it, and you simply repudiate anything that disagrees with your wrongheadedness. You are stubborn, arrogant, and rude, and I have spent enough time on this with you, so I will let it stand at that, and you can go on thinking you won the debate if you like, but the record speaks for itself here.

Im not an isolationist. Being against trade with ONE nation is not isolationism. You oafish manchild.

I have won the debate. your neocon gobledy gook either fades away into abstract intimations of future diplomacy and alleged bargaining power or negativistic defeatist soliloquies of appeasement. One moment you say we will change them with method x, then you say we can't change them, but we can just profit. Hee hee. Evil isn't cool. You can't even decide which facet of the person to appeal to, thus your message is mixed. You're a shitty propagandist. The truth is flawless.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

...and yet another AssHat post with empty rhetoric, liberal insults and put-downs, over-blown exaggeration, and irrelevant platitudes, while not addressing the issues or points directly or otherwise.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

And you've not 'won' a damn thing, you just keep repeating the same mindless shit over and over, and repudiating any one who doesn't agree. You haven't given us one single solitary idea or suggestion, other than... we shouldn't trade with China because it's bad! I'm sorry, but that doesn't suffice as reasonable justification for any damn thing I know of. You can't refute any of the points I have made about leverage, diplomacy, markets, or effecting a political change, you simply repudiate it on face value and move on. I'm sorry, but that is not how any debate I've ever known of, has been won.

What you are attempting to do now, is proclaim yourself victorious and close the book on this debate, because you realize you have lost badly. I have handed you your ass every way possible, and you continue to deny it's your ass, and insist you have the upper hand. You are incredibly stubborn, I will grant you that, and you sure have a lot of balls to be proclaiming victory here, when everyone can see you've not made a case for your viewpoint. Of course, that is typical of a liberal pinhead... just remain stubborn and arrogant, keep hurling the personal insults, and keep repeating the same mindless blather without addressing the points!

 

[Litmus]

And you've not 'won' a damn thing, you just keep repeating the same mindless shit over and over, and repudiating any one who doesn't agree. You haven't given us one single solitary idea or suggestion, other than... we shouldn't trade with China because it's bad! I'm sorry, but that doesn't suffice as reasonable justification for any damn thing I know of. You can't refute any of the points I have made about leverage, diplomacy, markets, or effecting a political change, you simply repudiate it on face value and move on. I'm sorry, but that is not how any debate I've ever known of, has been won.

What you are attempting to do now, is proclaim yourself victorious and close the book on this debate, because you realize you have lost badly. I have handed you your ass every way possible, and you continue to deny it's your ass, and insist you have the upper hand. You are incredibly stubborn, I will grant you that, and you sure have a lot of balls to be proclaiming victory here, when everyone can see you've not made a case for your viewpoint. Of course, that is typical of a liberal pinhead... just remain stubborn and arrogant, keep hurling the personal insults, and keep repeating the same mindless blather without addressing the points!

I have won. I have explained myself over and over. It's wrong morally and from a national security perspective, and for the long term existence of the american standard of living. I reject your idea of increasing our interactions with them to both a) profit from the slavery or b) exert some influence you allege will be gained through doing so. In the first case I believe it to be morally wrong. and in the second case i don't believe the influence will be there.
My other related complaint is allowing american production capacity to go extinct, and for america to become dependant on hostile powers. YOu never address any of this.

you just go back to calling me an isolationist, which I'm not, and being unreasonable, which you are.

 

[Damocles]

No, it's not. Punitive often works.


This is just unsubstianted speculations and negativism. It's just your way of warping minds into thinking there are no other options. Yours is not the only way. And in fact, your way is bad and shitty.

Unsubstantiated? What are you talking about? Pick up a history book. In what way was China even close to allowing open trade where citizens owned the proceeds before we began trade?

The mustard seed grows an awful mighty tree, the beginnings may be small but the end result will be a far more free society in the long-run. However, ending all trade with China just to make a point will end up with a return to the past policy which China tends to lean towards anyway.

Just as our sanctions worked so well with Cuba, so would it go with China. There would be no recourse for the citizen, only abuses.

We are supposed to learn something from history, and personally I am result oriented. I can refuse to trade with companies who use prison or slave labor, while working with the newly allowed open trade areas with companies who pay their workers. You can pretend that we can return to the policy that enforced their power and gave no incentive to change to a more free capatalistic system, but I can see the results, that these small changes are just a beginning and once the ball really gets rolling even the Chinese government will not be able to stop it.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

It's no use Damo, we've been repudiated here by the all-knowing AssHat! Don't you understand? Logic and reason mean nothing, it's all dependant upon what the smartest man on Earth thinks, and if we disagree, we are just a bunch of neocon fascist retards, and that's all there is to it! Don't bother trying to make a point, you have no points worthy of making, and any point you can try to make, can easily be repudiated by the great one! He's proven his ability to do this over and over, haven't you understood that yet???

 

[Litmus]

It's no use Damo, we've been repudiated here by the all-knowing AssHat! Don't you understand? Logic and reason mean nothing, it's all dependant upon what the smartest man on Earth thinks, and if we disagree, we are just a bunch of neocon fascist retards, and that's all there is to it! Don't bother trying to make a point, you have no points worthy of making, and any point you can try to make, can easily be repudiated by the great one! He's proven his ability to do this over and over, haven't you understood that yet???

You tell me how our business, which they don't need now, allegedly, will be a bargaining chip in the future, but isn't now. This is the double secret neocon switcheroo, it's classified, right?


oh, and if you could go over how production is a fixed quantity again. That would probably be entertaining.