The Plan, not a "theory"

No "substantive" increase in human rights, yet they haven't cracked down on Hong Kong, they have opened areas to capitalism, a new Middle Class has grown over the years and people move more freely with more automobiles and highways than ever.

Yes there are restrictive laws, yes there is Tibet, yes China needs to make more strides, but not trading with them didn't make any of the above changes happen. Opening areas to capatilistic trade would have been unheard of, and as more of the population reaches the undreamed of "riches" included more and more of them will spread this to the rest of China. The idea that there have been "no" changes because of the trade is simply denial, and that you get so hysterical over it only undermines your argument.

Denying trade kept people in the dark as to what others have and allowed the government an ultimate power they no longer have. They did not crack down heavily on huge demonstrations in 2002, previous to 1972, shoot even in the 90s they simply would have run over them with tanks.

To say that nothing has changed there, and that there is not slow progression toward something new, maybe too slow for some, but far better than pre-trade.

We make better strides being over-friendly than we ever did attempting to be strict.

But you must prove trading with them HAS improved something. Plus, you neocon monkey grunters actively seeking to make the world dependant on china.


Freedom isn't about having stuff. Nor is it about gdp. DO you really condone the use of prison labor? It's amazing how many new laws pop up when prison labor is allowed. It's really sick you cannot be honest.

There have been no moves toward greater freedom for anyone.
 
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But you must prove trading with them HAS improved something. Plus, you neocon monkey grunters actively seeking to make the world dependant on china.


Freedom isn't about having stuff. Nor is it about gdp. DO you really condone the use of prison labor? It's amazing how many new laws pop up when prison labor is allowed. It's really sick you cannot be honest.

There have been no moves toward greater freedom for anyone.
There have been moves towards greater freedom, I even listed them. You choose to dismiss them and point to the areas where nothing has been done. That I fully understand, it is however unprovable that nothing at all has been done as shown by examples given to you. Choosing to pretend that they do not exist and that magically those changes will exist by refusing to trade is going backwards in this case. Those new open markets would not exist without the trade we have with them.

I have not advocated prison labor and would suggest that we not trade with companies using such labor rather than cutting off all trade and remaking the total inability to effect any change that we had prior to 1972.
 
Even if no one does Damo, how long has it been since we did use prison labor for plate making ?

I guess we are a bit ahead of China ?
 
Even if no one does Damo, how long has it been since we did use prison labor for plate making ?

I guess we are a bit ahead of China ?
If you were in prison would you prefer to actually do something worthwhile or would you rather sit and mark time?

The difference between "prison labor" here in the US and those in China is choice and condition as well as the reason they are imprisoned. How often have we imprisoned solely political prisoners and forced them to labor?

Here we can go down to the prison where they train mustangs, buy a good horse at a very reasonable price as they cannot profit from their work while there. The prisoners learn a skill most would never have thought to learn. This lowers the recidivism rate and benefits society. Prisoners can choose to enter the program, or work in more traditional prison roles, mopping, cooking, laundry, etc. I am unsure if they can actually choose to sit and rot, but it is very close to such a choice...

Many people in prison receive a bachelor's degree, how often does that happen in a Chinese prison? The labor there is the whole of their existence, it does not teach a skill and is not aimed at lowering recidivism.
 
Colorado inmates: Making license plates since 1926
Gazette, The (Colorado Springs), Mar 5, 2006 by ANDREA BROWN THE GAZETTE

Rodney Serna's dad used to warn him that if he didn't behave, he'd wind up making license plates in prison.

He should've listened.

Serna, 33, serving life for murder, works at the "tag plant" inside Colorado Territorial Correctional Facility in Caon City.

"I never thought it was for real," he said, casting a slight smile at his fate as he bagged plates rolling off the assembly line.

The adage about inmates making license plates is a reality in most states.

In Colorado, they've been pounded out since 1926 at the state's oldest prison, which produces about 2 million plates a year for cars, trucks, motorcycles and trailers. Serna says it beats the other prison jobs he's had over 15 years.

"Mostly cellhouse porter jobs -- cleaning the pots, showers," he said. "This is pretty good."

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=license+plate+manufacturing+by+prisoners&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D5f4510c3f1045060%26clickedItemRank%3D2%26userQuery%3Dlicense%2Bplate%2Bmanufacturing%2Bby%2Bprisoners%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.findarticles.com%252Fp%252Farticles%252Fmi_qn4191%252Fis_20060305%252Fai_n16146578%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResultsT%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.findarticles.com%2Fp%2Farticles%2Fmi_qn4191%2Fis_20060305%2Fai_n16146578
 
Vermont license plates returned to the Department by the public are recycled. DMV personnel collect and store the license plates after voiding any validation stickers. The plates are then transported to Vermont Correctional Industries where they are cut up to make them unusable. The scrap material is sold to a recycling company in New Hampshire who ships the scrap to a facility in the Mid-West where the aluminum is smelted for reuse.

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=license+plate+manufacturing+by+prisoners&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D9a2b04737507ecf4%26clickedItemRank%3D3%26userQuery%3Dlicense%2Bplate%2Bmanufacturing%2Bby%2Bprisoners%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.aot.state.vt.us%252FDMV%252FABOUTUS%252FHISTORY%252FPlateHistory.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResultsT%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aot.state.vt.us%2FDMV%2FABOUTUS%2FHISTORY%2FPlateHistory.htm
 
Prison Industry Authority of California

Environmental and Health Issues and Recommendations
Responsible Manufacturers:

* The Prison Industry Authority (PIA) strives to operate all of its manufacturing, service, and agricultural enterprises in a responsible, green manner. PIA's efforts help to conserve resources, reduce waste, control global warming, and prevent pollution. PIA products and services can be purchased by governmental entities.

* By providing inmates with real world work experience, PIA helps to prepare them for successful re-entry into society. In this sense, PIA is the ultimate recycler. PIA provides inmates with the training and experience necessary to recycle these inmates from their prior lives into productive citizens.

http://search.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.jsp?query=license+plate+manufacturing+by+prisoners&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3Dfbeb6db533107218%26clickedItemRank%3D14%26userQuery%3Dlicense%2Bplate%2Bmanufacturing%2Bby%2Bprisoners%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.green.ca.gov%252FEPP%252Fsources%252FPIA.htm%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DNSCPResultsT%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.green.ca.gov%2FEPP%2Fsources%2FPIA.htm
 
shall I continue the search ?
Nah, I did say that I did not know of them not that they didn't exist. I know we get cheap horses at Canon City because of the program I outlined. Notice how the guy talks it up as better than swabbing and cooking?

Once again I ask you, what would you prefer if you were in prison. Sitting and counting dust specks or doing something? What are their hours comparitively? What is the reason they ended up in prison comparitively? Is it to keep them from being idle and thus rioting or to enforce a political teaching? All of these things will make a difference in how it is viewed. Shoot, prison workers in the US actually earn a minimal wage.
 
Damo you might want to check out a book.
Prisons: Today and tomorrow by Joycelyn Pollock

btw, you are owned.
Not really... What I am speaking to is the whole "prison labor" thing, to the reality of the differences between the two systems. What you are doing is showing that they make plates. Answer my questions and prove that prisoners in the US are subject to the same conditions as the prison labor in China and then we'll talk about "owned" or not. So far you haven't shown that conditions in US prisons are equitable to Chinese prisons, or given a reason that we should trade with companies who use such forced labor in Chinese prisons because it is supposedly the same.

Clearly they are not even close in condition, or in causation, or even in why they were sent to prison.
 
Just pointing out that we use prison labor so it is false outrage to pick on another country for doing it. FL does not even pay it's prisoners for their labor.
 
Also the fact that we have pretty much the highest percentage of our citizens in prison compared to the world does not speak well for our country.
 
Also the fact that we have pretty much the highest percentage of our citizens in prison compared to the world does not speak well for our country.

I think it speaks very well for law enforcement. How did your pinhead ass get off on a discussion about prisoners and prison labor? Do you equate prisoners to slaves? It figures!
 
Also the fact that we have pretty much the highest percentage of our citizens in prison compared to the world does not speak well for our country.
It speaks strongly to the effectiveness of the "War on Drugs". Most in prison are there for non-violent crimes where they simply owned the wrong thing.
 
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