The Reckoning we Need to Ensure a "More Perfect Union"

I found this to be very powerful to me. Personally, this is a great example of how to move forward. I just hope it isn't too late. Unfortunately, the backlash to this thought process will be strong. It will be seen as divisive and a sign of weakness.

Let's Hope our "More Perfect Union" continues to be attainable. Those ideals truly make this the greatest country.

so union is formed by creating a massive divide between races?.........it would appear that union actually exists before children are told there are differences.....

“He still has no idea why people care so much,” Rosebush said. “He wanted to look like Reddy … now he thinks they look the same.”

https://www.today.com/parents/boy-wants-haircut-look-his-friend-trick-teacher-t108795
 
Yes. The OP tries to make the argument that it doesn't matter what your personal history is / was, what's important is your ethnicity. That alone makes you guilty of the past sins of some unrelated persons who share some vague resemblance to you. Thus, all Whites are guilty of the sins of slavery and all Blacks victims, regardless of whether your ancestors participated in some way or not. Even worse, it absolves Blacks of being slave owners, which some were.

The whole thing smacks of a shallow, childish, exercise in mental gymnastics that defies all logic. But then again, that pretty much defines about 99% of Leftist thinking.

The OP is racist and bigoted. I already pointed that out. Both racism and bigotry are compositional error fallacies, so yes...they defy logic. A fallacy is an error in logic, similar to a math error. Logic is a closed functional system just like mathematics.
 
That is not what the OP argues.

I really just see some parallels between Germany dealing with the sins of the Holocaust and the US dealing with the sins of Slavery.

As a result of reconstruction failing, we, as a country (not race/ethnicity) never had that reckoning. Never truly healed those wounds.

100 years after slavery ended the United States did end segregation and enforcement Civil Rights for all Americans. However, that 100 years included celebrating the Confederacy and its leaders. The very people that fought to maintain slavery and fought against the US.

In Germany, the opposite happened. Partially because of pressure by the US. They actually have laws against celebrating Nazis or creating memorials for Nazi leaders.

This isn't about race it is about how a country failed to reckon with the sins of slavery for 100 years. Then, when the reckoning happened, statues remained and the argument quickly becomes "I am not guilty".

True, I am not guilty, but this country is/was. If the country struggles to denounce those who fought to maintain slavery how can the ancestors of those who were enslaved feel?

Again, maybe none of it matters. I just found it an interesting comparison. I don't think politics plays a role.

The story of Germany the leader breaking down was powerful. He wasn't guilty but felt guilty for Germany, not because of race or ethnicity.

If we can celebrate the glories of the past that we didn't contribute to why can't we have guilt about the failures? It doesn't have to be about race,it can be about being an American.

No???

Sorry for the long response. This is really difficult to explain on this forum. Especially with the assumptions about me based on previous posts. Yes, I am more liberal than conservative. I don't believe that had anything to do with my thoughts after reading the story.

Paradox. You can't argue both sides of a paradox, dude. It's irrational.
 
What "paying for"?

Acknowledging and respecting that history is not paying for.
You do not respect history. Your only goal is to continue to be racist.
Putting up monuments that honor those enslaved instead of the slaveholders and successionists is not paying for.
Requiring statues to be taken down IS paying for. Who are YOU to decide what someone else wants to put up a statue for?? Racism. Bigotry.
Respecting that this horrific history has an impact on our culture today isn't paying for.
YOU are the only one trying to keep slavery alive right now, vicariously. Racism. Bigotry.
No, he obviously wasn't talking directly about slavery. However, the comparison is the US after slavery vs Germany after the Holocaust.
No comparison, other than that both are the result of socialism. Germany didn't have slaves.
Are the 2 countries at different places regarding their ultimate sin because of how they processed what they did?
Presentism fallacy. At the time, slavery in the United States wasn't a sin. It was legal. Deal with it.
The US followed slavery with 60 + years of Jim Crow. Germany followed the Holocaust with a leader in tears.
Racism. Bigotry.
There is no paying for. Just a lack of denial and a little empathy.
You can't go back in time to fix any of it. Deal with it.
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Quoting Plato only shows your own ignorance and where you are coming from...fascism. Socialism.

Plato argued for the kind of hell you say you are condemning. Yet YOU are trying to keep the past alive. For what? YOU want to tear down statues and monuments that others put up. Who are YOU to dictate anything to anyone?

Bigotry. Racism. Get a life.
 
Lol! No self-awareness yet you don't see the difference between a monument honoring a slave holding secessionist and one honoring those who were enslaved.
Because you don't respect or know any history or the Constitution of the United States. You have no idea how or why the War of Secession occurred. You have no idea what they were fighting for. You have no idea why the seceding States formed their own constitution and why they were right to do so, despite the element of slavery in their decision.

You should pay more attention to the 4th, 5th, 9th, and 10th amendments, and to Articles I and II.

You cannot judge the past according to today's values. That is the presentism fallacy.
You cannot assume that every statue raised to a hero in that war was owned slaves or even wanted to. Bigotry. A compositional error fallacy involving people as the class.
You cannot assume that all slave owners were white. Racism. A compositional error fallacy involving people as the class and a genetic trait as the property.
Genocide and slavery are not the same thing.
Learn about Plato, if you are going to bother quoting him. He argued for fascism and communism...the very things you are trying to do yourself, in your effort to condemn the Confederate States.
Talk about lack of self-awareness and a bunch of privilege.
I just did. You are illiterate. You do not know history. You are not self aware. You are focused on things that don't matter anymore. You consider yourself 'privileged' and feel you must pay for the sins of others.

Bigotry. Racism. Get a life.
 
I see the difference clearly but you didn't address my question.

What "privilege" do I possess? You're inner retarded cunt is starting to show. I am trying to converse sensibly with you.

You can't. He's focused on his own 'privilege' and is trying to get people to pay for the sins of others by going back in time to a history he doesn't even know. It's like dealing with a fundamentalist. What he is doing is a religion. It is the religion of Karl Marx. It is the religion of Plato. It is the religion of socialism. It is the religion of the 'woke'.
 
The privilege that you don't have to be overly concerned about what happened to previous generations.

And don't claim to be "sensible" when as soon as I disagree or state my point strongly you start using language that is offensive. That is the antithesis of "sensible".

It is easy for me to say I didn't do it. Who cares about the Lee statue?!?! It is a sign of privilege. My ancestors weren't slave owners but they also weren't enslaved. They also didn't face racis. And terrorism because of their race. My grandparents didn't see the Lee statue built during a time when they could be murdered for trying to vote.

I have no idea what it means to have people I love, grandparents tell me those stories of their actual life experiences. That is privilege.

Paradox. Bigotry. Racism. YOU care about the Lee statue. YOU care about someone flying the Stars and Bars. YOU care about and want to continue to foment bigotry and racism. YOU want to tear down statues that others put up and force them to accept 'their own sins'.

Get a life.
 
That makes no sense whatsoever. No one have to be "overly concerned" about it whatever that means.

It's easy because I DIDNT DO IT. A Lee statue is a sign of our complicated past. It is not our present.

No that's fate. Our nation is no where near what it used to be but to listen to the deranged left in this you would think it's the 1800s. It's asinine.

Bingo.
 
And if you listen to the right everything, unless run by Democrats, is free from issues and run perfectly. If you don't believe the "more perfect" union is now perfect (minus Democrats) then you don't love this country.

There is no Union, thanks to the Democrats.

You can't restore the Union by living in the past and dredging up racism and bigotry.

False dichotomy fallacy. Bigotry.
 
Nobbody said anything about reparations or collective punishment.
YOU did. YOU are the one trying to keep this old shit alive, and make people feel sorry for the sins of others. You're a liar, dude.
Obviously this is too complicated for you to have a conversation about.
Passive accusations aren't going to work either. Assumption of victory fallacy.
Thanks for sharing.
Passive and false thanking. Assumption of victory fallacy. Belittlement fallacy. Thought terminating cliche fallacy.

Get a life.
 
This is far from a perfect country but it's the closest thing on this fucking planet. We have made no significant headway toward improving America since the left was butt hurt by trump's election. He did nothing to help change people's minds about him l but in all fairness I don't think he ever could have changed anyone's mind about him. There was too much hatred.

The hatred has increased. I've never seen the country this polarized. It has entered a moment in history where we are looking at the very real possibility of a civil war, which this nation has never fought before.
The War of Secession was a war between two nations. This coming war, if it happens (I hope to God it can be avoided) will be street by street, individual against individual. A religious war...the most devastating type of war. A war between city vs country.

A War of the Woke.
 
I agree! However, when this isn't denounced as loudly as a peaceful protest during the national anthem. We still have major problems. Perhaps that is why the story connected with me so much.
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Why is the athlete even here? She hates America, yet wants to represent America. She is disrespectful, racist, and bigoted...like you are.
 
YOU did. YOU are the one trying to keep this old shit alive, and make people feel sorry for the sins of others. You're a liar, dude.

Passive accusations aren't going to work either. Assumption of victory fallacy.

Passive and false thanking. Assumption of victory fallacy. Belittlement fallacy. Thought terminating cliche fallacy.

Get a life.

Keeping old stories alive is history. Duh. Is teaching history irrelevant because someone might feel guilty? I disagree with that fallacy.

You can't claim a bunch of fallacies when your premise starts with a lie.

I never said anything, ever, about reparations. You continue to lie.

No reason to continue a discussion about proven liar. Dishonest people are incapable of having meaningful discussions.

Make any accusations you want. Know that it is based on a lie. Your entire point is a fallacy. Lying POS fallacy to be specific.
 
Why is the athlete even here? She hates America, yet wants to represent America. She is disrespectful, racist, and bigoted...like you are.
Pot meet kettle fallacy.

Disrespectful, you are the one making baseless accusations and lying about what i have/haven't said. You are the name-caller.

Don't call me racist because I am not afraid of our history. I am not afraid to study the horrors done to people throughout our history. I am not afraid to celebrate the greatness of our ideals while criticizing our sins.

The history of this country is my history. I am not afraid of that fact.

[QUOTE ]Bigot-a person who is unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is PREJUDICED against or antagonistic toward a person on the basis of their membership of a particular group.[/QUOTE]

Again, this isn't my behavior. You place me in a group and disrespect me because of your PREJUDICE against the group you perceive me to be a member of.

The OP is my honest response to a story. You made it about politics, left vs right, and personal insults. You were antagonistic towards me based on your prejudice towards a group you believe i am a member of.

You can make any claims you want. I am not going to engage lies and personal attacks.
 
I don't think Into the Night either reads or comprehends what is posted before responding. It is almost comical.
Belittlement fallacy. Argument of the stone fallacy. Bulverism.
He dismisses everything as racism or bigotry, or (my favorite) irrelevant.
Only people racism (a compositional error fallacy involving people as the class and genetic trait as the property) or bigotry (a compositional error fallacy involving people as the class), or irrelevant comments. Compositional error fallacy.
The topic of the OP is post WWII Germany navigating its role in the Holocaust. Coming to terms with the horror it inflicted.
Bigotry. Get a life. Germany after Hitler didn't HAVE a role in the Holocaust. The Nazi party was destroyed. Very few loyalists escaped that and they had to be hunted down one by one. Why are YOU trying to keep this bigotry alive?
It then compares that to what happened in this country after slavery ended. As a student of history, I found that interesting.
As a student of history, you flunk. You STILL have no idea why the Confederacy has a correct stance despite the element of slavery in it. You STILL have no idea why the war started. You STILL assume that most people in the Confederacy or that fought in that war were slave owners. Bigotry. You STILL assume that all slave owners were white. Racism. You STILL assume that racism didn't occur in the Union. Bigotry. Illiteracy. You assume that the values of today can be applied to the past. Presentism fallacy.

What the loser school that taught you about the War of Secession was WRONG.

YOU don't get to decide what someone else puts up as a statue.
YOU don't get to decide what someone flies for a flag.
YOU don't get to hold people accountable for the sins of others.

Get a life.


I then asked questions about if we need to have that honest conversation and consider taking similar actions.
You are not having a conversation. You are preaching.
The most basic example is monuments.
YOU don't get to decide what monument to what someone else wants to put up or maintain.
I never suggested reparations. I just wonder how we can continue the quest for a "more perfect" union.
Lie. You are suggesting reparations right here in this post of yours.
 
Keeping old stories alive is history.
Fiction, bigotry, and racism, is not history.
Duh. Is teaching history irrelevant because someone might feel guilty?
It is YOU trying to make someone feel guilty. You are not teaching history. You are preaching.
I disagree with that fallacy.
Too bad. Stop making it. I call 'em as I see 'em.
You can't claim a bunch of fallacies when your premise starts with a lie.
It is YOU that is lying. Inversion fallacy.
I never said anything, ever, about reparations. You continue to lie.
Lie. You CONTINUE to bring up the subject of reparations. You want people to feel sorry for the sins of others. Anyone can go back and look at your posts.
No reason to continue a discussion about proven liar. Dishonest people are incapable of having meaningful discussions.
Assumption of victory fallacy. Inversion fallacy.
Make any accusations you want. Know that it is based on a lie. Your entire point is a fallacy. Lying POS fallacy to be specific.
Inversion fallacy. Mockery. Denial of logic.
 
Pot meet kettle fallacy.
Fallacy fallacy. I am not you. I am not that athlete.
Disrespectful, you are the one making baseless accusations and lying about what i have/haven't said. You are the name-caller.
Inversion fallacy. YOU are the one calling people liars for describing what you said and what you are arguing.
Don't call me racist because I am not afraid of our history.
Fiction is not history. Drop the racism and bigotry, dude.
I am not afraid to study the horrors done to people throughout our history.
Fiction is not history. I submit you ARE afraid to study. The values of today DO NOT APPLY to the past. Presentism fallacy.
I am not afraid to celebrate the greatness of our ideals while criticizing our sins.
You have mentioned NONE of them. You deny the Constitution of the United States. I submit you ARE afraid to celebrate the ideals of the American Dream.
The history of this country is my history. I am not afraid of that fact.
Fiction is not history.
[QUOTE ]Bigot-a person who is unreasonably attached to a belief, opinion, or faction, especially one who is PREJUDICED against or antagonistic toward a person on the basis of their membership of a particular group.
[/QUOTE]
WRONG. Redefinition fallacy. Bigotry is a compositional error fallacy involving people as the class. It doesn't matter if it vaunts a class over another or disparages the class.
Again, this isn't my behavior.
It IS your behavior.
You place me in a group
No group. It's just you.
and disrespect me because of your PREJUDICE against the group you perceive me to be a member of.
No group. It's just you.
The OP is my honest response to a story.
YOU brought up the racism. YOU brought up the bigotry. YOU are trying to keep them both alive. YOU are trying to apply the values of today against the past. Presentism fallacy. YOU are trying preach reparations by making people feel sorry for the sins of another. YOU are trying teach fiction as 'history'.
You made it about politics,
It IS about politics, dude. Nazi Germany is about politics. The War of Secession was about politics. The 'woke' mentality is about politics. You even posted about all this in a political forum. WTF????!?
left vs right,
There is no 'left'. There is no 'right'. You are applying how members in Congress are seated against world events. False equivalence fallacy. Congress is not the world.
and personal insults.
YOU are making the personal insults. Inversion fallacy. I have made none. Bigotry is not an insult. It is a fallacy. Racism is not an insult. It is a fallacy. Both of these are particularly ugly fallacies people like you use them to disparage others or vaunt themselves.
You were antagonistic towards me based on your prejudice towards a group you believe i am a member of.
No group. Just you.
You can make any claims you want. I am not going to engage lies and personal attacks.
Paradox. Inversion fallacy. It is YOU making personal attacks. It is YOU engaging in lies. It is YOU trying to keep racism and bigotry alive. It is YOU trying to make others feel sorry for the acts of another.

This is another attempt at a thought terminating cliche. If YOU can't stand what YOU are doing, then put me on your ignore list now. Remove yourself from the conversation. It will of course do nothing to protect your posts from my comments.
 
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