You have to figure anything organic in nature is not going to last any real length of time in the geologic setting. It is extremely rare for organics to remain around unless they are quickly put into an anoxic environment and even then there's biological diagenetic processes that will alter it extremely if not remove it altogether.
The Silurian hypothesis
- Thread starter Dutch Uncle
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You have to figure anything organic in nature is not going to last any real length of time in the geologic setting. It is extremely rare for organics to remain around unless they are quickly put into an anoxic environment and even then there's biological diagenetic processes that will alter it extremely if not remove it altogether.
We understand material science and chemical properties very well at this point. An advanced technological civilization would have to learn metallurgy, simply because of how vastly superior metals and alloys are in terms of durability, conductivity, electromagnetism. Relying on wood, stone, and organic matter just can't conceivably be the basis of an advanced technological civilization.
Agreed. It's an important question to ask, and exobiology is in its infancy and we need really good ideas about how to detect alien life.Again, Fermi's Paradox; where are these advanced civilizations and how would we detect their existence?
An Evolutionary Timeline of Homo Sapiens
Scientists share the findings that helped them pinpoint key moments in the rise of our specieswww.smithsonianmag.com
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Plants harness and control energy. It's called photosynthesis. All humans consume, convert and store energy....some so much that they are obese.
Again, you assume that an advanced species must be exactly like humans. That's an assumption without evidence to back it up.
If we don't know how intelligence evolves, why are you claiming we'll be replaced by tech?
So far, we've never detected life on other planets. The entire point of the Silurian Hypothesis is to ask why. What are we missing? Either we're missing something or they don't exist.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Wood will last centuries and petrify in many cases. Testing layers of sediment will find seeds and other organic matter that can be carbon dated.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
An advanced species would organize agriculture to make it more efficient. Hell, even ants can manage that.
What Ants Can Teach Humans about Farming
How tiny fungus farmers made a model of sustainable agriculture.
www.discovermagazine.com
Our sample size is probably too small.
But wood that is millions of years old is going to be very, very highly altered.
I spent about 4-5 years looking at coal through a microscope for my grad degree. Sometimes it is amazing to see that the plant and wood structures like cells and even trachieds between the cells is preserved, but it would be hard to say if that wood was in any way "handled by" or "modified" by the hand of man.
Not at the millions of year mark. The half life of 14C is only a little north of 5000 years so it has a pretty limited range of time it can test for.
FTFY.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Except we know it's not. There's plenty of scientific evidence of that in existence.
Hardly a valid set of evidence.
There are other methods of dating stuff.
I keep coming back to the need for organized social activities for an intelligent species. You can reasonably expect any intelligent species, over time, to also practice organized behaviors to improve their lot, particularly with respect to food and shelter. Even hunter-gatherers do that.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
Good. What about millions of years? A slightly different carbon formula? I'm not a chemist, but understand there's a limited range of chemicals for life. Some type of bonding on the atomic level. Still, that creates a huuuuuuge fucking range of possibilities.
Agreed on the science of carbon dating.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
As but one example:
There are also numerous fossils of plant matter. If a race was even marginally technologically and socially advanced, one would expect they'd alter their environment to improve it for themselves and there would be traces of that left to find in the fossil record.
The other thing you'd expect to find are fossils of this species itself.
Dutch Uncle
* Tertia Optio * Defend the Constitution
How old are those petrified tree trunks?As but one example:
There are also numerous fossils of plant matter. If a race was even marginally technologically and socially advanced, one would expect they'd alter their environment to improve it for themselves and there would be traces of that left to find in the fossil record.
The other thing you'd expect to find are fossils of this species itself.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
About 200 million years old.
If that is the Petrified Forest in Arizona that kind of fossilization is very rare. That is why the Petrified Forest is designated a National Park and is considered globally significant - it's rare and really not something we see a lot of examples of. Vegetation and organic material is usually reduced to coal, peat, bitumen, petroleum.As but one example:
There are also numerous fossils of plant matter. If a race was even marginally technologically and socially advanced, one would expect they'd alter their environment to improve it for themselves and there would be traces of that left to find in the fossil record.
The other thing you'd expect to find are fossils of this species itself.
Technically, there is no remaining inorganic matter in those Petrified Forest examples. The wood has been completely replaced by silica minerals leaving just the relic tree structure behind.
The Petrified Forest, in Calistoga, California holds one of the finest examples in the world of a preserved ancient forest. This unique site at the gateway to the Napa Valley was created following a violent volcanic explosion 3.4 million years ago.
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
It's hardly unique. Petrified wood is found worldwide. There are locations on every continent and many other places, like Indonesia, as well. The age of such fossils also varies from nearly 300 million BC to less than a million years. In Yellowstone NP, there are 27 different ages of petrified wood that have been discovered.
Wood and stone are basic building materials on Earth. Organizing these into some sort of structure would be expected of a technologically capable civilization to some degree.
Petrified wood can be identified to age by the type of tree(s) it consists of, the strata in which it is found, etc. It might not be perfect, but it is possible to date it. But the key idea here is that a species that has some degree of technological development would have left traces of that behind. The only reason I can see for it not being the case is that the civilization that did develop it remained small and local making discovery of any remnants far harder to find.
Please respond to what I actually wrote, and not to what you wish I wrote.
I said Petrified Forests are rare. I did not say the Petrified Forest in Arizona was unique.
The Petrified Forest in Arizona has been designated a national park, and also a UN World Heritage site because of it geologic and paleotological global significance.
Petrified Forest National Park - UNESCO World Heritage Centre
UNESCO World Heritage Centre
Cool
Like I said, they are rare. You literally have to travel hundreds or thousands of miles around the globe to find good examples of petrified forests of any significant size.
Petrified Forest National Park, USA - "No other area in the U.S. has such large exposed petrified wood deposits or the diversity of animal and other plant fossils as exists here. Worldwide, Levros Island in Greece has deposits of similar size but they are much younger, being from the Cenozoic era of roughly 20 million years ago. On the World Heritage List, Argentina's Ischigualasto Provincial Park also contains Triassic era fossils, but of different plant and animal species and of different ecosystems-Petrified Forest representing a tropical ecosystem and Ischigualasto a high latitude one. Furthermore, the fossils of Petrified Forest exceed Ischigualasto's in their amount of outcrop exposure and fossil diversity, and rival the latter in terms of the early dinosaur record."
Petrified Forest National Park - UNESCO World Heritage Centre
UNESCO World Heritage Centre
T. A. Gardner
Thread Killer
Petrified wood isn't even rare. It's found worldwide and in lots of locations. It's common enough that its used to make furniture.Please respond to what I actually wrote, and not to what you wish I wrote.
I said Petrified Forests are rare. I did not say the Petrified Forest in Arizona was unique.
The Petrified Forest in Arizona has been designated a national park, and also a UN World Heritage site because of it geologic and paleotological global significance.
Petrified Forest National Park - UNESCO World Heritage Centre
UNESCO World Heritage Centrewhc.unesco.org
Petrified Wood
Petrified wood furniture handcrafted from million year old trees makes unique,stylish organic furniture. This collection of high-end vintage fossilized wood pieces are sourced from the tropical forests of Indonesia and Bali Islands and fashioned into stools and side tables.petrified wood stool...
airefurniture.com
Okay, I was thinking of extensive deposits and outcrops of petrified wood like the Petrified Forest.Petrified wood isn't even rare. It's found worldwide and in lots of locations. It's common enough that its used to make furniture.
Petrified Wood
Petrified wood furniture handcrafted from million year old trees makes unique,stylish organic furniture. This collection of high-end vintage fossilized wood pieces are sourced from the tropical forests of Indonesia and Bali Islands and fashioned into stools and side tables.petrified wood stool...
I am sure you can find individual discrete samples of petrified wood in several part of the world. Gold deposits are not really rare by that standard either.