The Trinity

domer76 said:
No, I realize it’s one god, but three individual entities. That makes even less sense.

The analogy of a man being a husband, father and brother all at once was called modality. One god, three modes. Modality was shot down when a theologian pointed out the Crucifixion. You can’t kill that one god and have modality work.

So, they still needed three separate entities.
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Jesus wasn't killed, according to New Testament tradition

I agree the concept of the trinity itself can't be justified logically
 
Yakuda said:
There's plenty of excellent writings on the Trinity. I know you won't read them because this thread is about insulting not learning. If for some reason though your brain has a glitch and you might be interested in reading a brief but excellent explanation of the Trinity, you might try Theology And Sanity by Frank Sheed. It requires reading skills though.
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Holy Rollers and militant atheists are both only interested in defending their turf.

There are plenty of religious historians out there that could make evangelical literalistists and militant atheists question their assumptions.

The problem is most people on both sides only look for sources that confirm their preexisting beliefs
 
BidenPresident said:
St. Thomas Aquinas called Aristotle "The Philosopher" and based Christian theology on Aristotle.
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He was interested in using Aristotelian logic to defend existing Catholic doctrine. His logical proof of God strikes me as a riff off Aristotelian syllogisms.

Plato was probably more influential in influencing Christian belief and theology.
 
domer76 said:
I’ve already read and heard dissertations on the subject. I’ve not heard or read anything that would convince a rational mind on that bizarre concept. It wasn’t an OT concept and doesn’t really appear, except as an add-on in John, in the NT.

What was the need for it? To try to explain some difficulties created by discrepancies or to fulfill an OT requirement?
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Of course but was an OT concept. Not sure what youve read.
 
Cypress said:
He was interested in using Aristotelian logic to defend existing Catholic doctrine. His logical proof of God strikes me as a riff off Aristotelian syllogisms.

Plato was probably more influential in influencing Christian belief and theology.
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Three aspects of god comes directly from Aristotle.
 
Cypress said:
Holy Rollers and militant atheists are both only interested in defending their turf.

There are plenty of religious historians out there that could make evangelical literalistists and militant atheists question their assumptions.

The problem is most people on both sides only look for sources that confirm their preexisting beliefs
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Ok. Cite one that would make me question my assumption of the Trinity.
 
Obtenebrator said:
The Trinity appears to come from First Epistle of John 5:7-8 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one."

To my understanding this is the biblical support for the Trinity concept.
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One god, three aspects. Not three gods.
 
Yakuda said:
Ok. Cite one that would make me question my assumption of the Trinity.
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Erasmus apparently had a very hard time finding support in original documents and was about to leave it out of his translation but the Church was able to "find" a document with it. Erasmus suspected that it was not necessarily a valid source but the Church apparently started rattling the noise that Erasmus may be reviving Arias' heresy which had been deemed heretical in Nicaea
 
Obtenebrator said:
Where does it show up in the OT?
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The very first line. "God created" in Hebrew, the language of the OT, is, "bara Elohim". Plural noun singular verb. In Hebrew somewhat like english bara refers to "a few" which in English like Hebrew suggests three or more. Plus it says, let US make ....
 
Yakuda said:
The very first line. "God created" in Hebrew, the language of the OT, is, "bara Elohim". Plural noun singular verb. In Hebrew somewhat like english bara refers to "a few" which in English like Hebrew suggests three or more. Plus it says, let US make ....
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That's an interesting take on it. Sounds reasonable.

When I look at Strong's Concordance on Elohim it gives this definition (the key point which I highlighted might explain the plural):

אֱלֹהִים ʼĕlôhîym, el-o-heem'; plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:—angels, × exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), × (very) great, judges, × mighty.
 
Obtenebrator said:
That's an interesting take on it. Sounds reasonable.

When I look at Strong's Concordance on Elohim it gives this definition (the key point which I highlighted might explain the plural):

אֱלֹהִים ʼĕlôhîym, el-o-heem'; plural of H433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:—angels, × exceeding, God (gods) (-dess, -ly), × (very) great, judges, × mighty.
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The presence of the Trinity is all over Scripture. The OT is a foretelling of the NT. A reading of Frank Sheeds book as I suggested earlier is a great explanation. One of the best I have ever read.
 
Yakuda said:
Ok. Cite one that would make me question my assumption of the Trinity.
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I don't like to make recommendations because it's up to every individual to decide how and if to challenge themselves.

Legitimate scholars aren't supposed to tell you what to believe. They are supposed to give a fair critical analysis. I have no vested interest in 'disproving' trinitarian doctrine to you.

Based on 18 years experience on this board, people who are passionately atheistic are going to look for sources that confirm their preconceived notions, and committed holy rollers are going to do the same.

These are some scholars I like.

Agnostic religious historian Bart Ehrman
Catholic scholar Luke Timothy Johnson
Protestant theologian Phillip Carey
Jewish scholar Shai Cherry
Hindu scholar Mark Muesse
Confucian scholar Robert Andre Lafleur
 
Yakuda said:
The presence of the Trinity is all over Scripture. The OT is a foretelling of the NT. A reading of Frank Sheeds book as I suggested earlier is a great explanation. One of the best I have ever read.
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Yeah, Sheed lost me with his claim “God revealed to us”. Then, followed by word salad and hair-pulling diversions. He’s an apologist and tries quite poorly to do that.
 
domer76 said:
Where in the OT is the mention of a Trinity?
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The poster described their position in Post #34. It relies in part on the plural being used in reference to God in Genesis at the beginning.

I don't know if that's a solid line of reasoning but it at least supports their position.
 
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