US falls to average in education ranking

[Bonestorm]

I never said that teaching was a career path for the money minded. I pointed out that public education had lots of money and power. Teachers have an average income...That said this income also has a nice vacation period(s) ABOVE that of most private sector jobs and way better retirement and healthcare bennifits. Your point is invalid.

Marketplace economics theory is based on supply and demand. Where there is demand supply (private schools) will increase. An average size private k-8 in a small town in rural WA with a private school size of 500 students, using a vocuher in the amt. of 4000.00 per student, would be 2 million dollars for that school- do you see the math? Understand that private school budgets are about 3 times smaller then public school budgets and you can see why competion would happen. This amount is actually much smaller, but I used it for easy calculations- for instance the national average of per student spending is 9963.00

*Staff of 18 teachers (810k); a secretary(35k); a principle(85k) and the cost of operating facilities (24k-2k monthly) would cost less then 1 million dollars.

There is the purchase of the facility (not included in costs) which would be paid for in short order.

*This includes a higher then average salary for a private teachers typical salary.

I'm not sure what you point is and, frankly, I'm not sure that you have one other than "vouchers are good and teachers' unions are bad."

By the way, who's going to set up and run your voucher program?

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Having a reasonable discussion with a Socialist about Vouchers, is like having a reasonable discussion with a crack head about rehab. You'll get nowhere fast. There's just no way a Socialist can ever embrace such a system, it takes too much power from the hands of government and puts it in the hands of the people. Now, if we were talking about a completely Federal-controlled and operated school system, where liberals could hire liberal teachers, and they could educate with liberal curriculum, you may have something they could get behind. Of course, that's almost the system we have now, states merely act as custodians.

Vouchers are not "welfare" and they wouldn't be unconstitutional. We already pay a portion of our federal taxes to fund and supplement education. Vouchers simply sends that money to the individuals rather than the school. Instead of the typical public school ritual of counting butts in seats to receive federal funding, the school would have to compete with other schools for the consumer's voucher. It's the same money, just distributed in a different way. What it would do, is change priorities. Instead of a typical school focusing on attendance numbers, they would become focused on quality of education, if they expected to stay in business.

 

[Bonestorm]

Having a reasonable discussion with a Socialist about Vouchers, is like having a reasonable discussion with a crack head about rehab. You'll get nowhere fast. There's just no way a Socialist can ever embrace such a system, it takes too much power from the hands of government and puts it in the hands of the people. Now, if we were talking about a completely Federal-controlled and operated school system, where liberals could hire liberal teachers, and they could educate with liberal curriculum, you may have something they could get behind. Of course, that's almost the system we have now, states merely act as custodians.

Vouchers are not "welfare" and they wouldn't be unconstitutional. We already pay a portion of our federal taxes to fund and supplement education. Vouchers simply sends that money to the individuals rather than the school. Instead of the typical public school ritual of counting butts in seats to receive federal funding, the school would have to compete with other schools for the consumer's voucher. It's the same money, just distributed in a different way. What it would do, is change priorities. Instead of a typical school focusing on attendance numbers, they would become focused on quality of education, if they expected to stay in business.

Who would set up and run your voucher program?

 

[leaningright]

Who would set up and run your voucher program?

Noone wants to answer you Nigel. Do you think it might be because a system where x-dollars of tax money is spent per student in a government run system, a system referred to as "socialist" by many, is essentially the same as when x-dollars of tax money is spent per student at the oversight of the government as well? What's the difference? You reckon that might have something to do with the lack of response?

Gotta run for today. Going to a wedding. Later.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Who would set up and run your voucher program?

What do you mean? What needs to be "set up" or "run" in a voucher system? I guess whatever agency sends out the checks... the Treasury or IRS? They would send each person a voucher, the school receiving the voucher would send it back to the government for reimbursement. Yeah, it cuts out millions of dollars worth of bloated federal and state bureaucracy, but what the heck?

Could you mean "academic standards" and such? Who gets to decide those? Well, in that case, I think academic standards would be set globally, probably based on university requirements, etc. A school operating as a private business, is going to want to offer the best curriculum for the student, and do a better job than the competition, so as for actual standards regarding the knowledge being taught, the free market will ensure it's at least to the level of what is currently being taught in public schools. I can't envision it being worse through the private sector.

 

[Bonestorm]

What do you mean? What needs to be "set up" or "run" in a voucher system? I guess whatever agency sends out the checks... the Treasury or IRS? They would send each person a voucher, the school receiving the voucher would send it back to the government for reimbursement. Yeah, it cuts out millions of dollars worth of bloated federal and state bureaucracy, but what the heck?

So the federal government? Do state and local governments have to participate? What about federalism? Isn't this just a re-distributive socialist scheme?

 

[Canceled2]

I'm not sure what you point is and, frankly, I'm not sure that you have one other than "vouchers are good and teachers' unions are bad."

By the way, who's going to set up and run your voucher program?

The point is that choice in the market place is the best way to get results. Further it provides the best incentive for failing public schools to get their act together or face extinction. My additional point is that the closed system of government run edcuation has by and large turned out to be an expensive failure.

The voucher program would be paid for the same way the public system is now. Oversight exists even for private schools...you have heard of accreditation right? I believe Milwaukee has a voucher program with the longest history and so I am sure offer a good model.

Another researched article you likely don't care about.

 

[Bonestorm]

The point is that choice in the market place is the best way to get results. Further it provides the best incentive for failing public schools to get their act together or face extinction. My additional point is that the closed system of government run edcuation has by and large turned out to be an expensive failure.

On this we disagree.

The voucher program would be paid for the same way the public system is now. Oversight exists even for private schools...you have heard of accreditation right? I believe Milwaukee has a voucher program with the longest history and so I am sure offer a good model.

I'm wondering which authority sets up your voucher program. State government? Federal government? Local government?

Milwaukee's model is shit. Voucher students perform no better than students in Milwaukee public schools.

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/rick...ects_of_milwaukee_vouchers_whats_it_mean.html

Another researched article you likely don't care about.

Hey! You're right for once. I don't care.

 

[Minister of Truth]

No I'm aware of those criticisms of the DOE and I'm not at all opposed to reform. I'm merely pointing out the agenda of those who advocate the elimination of the DOE.

Part of the problem I have with the DOE is that many of it's members don't seem to be able to keep up or cope with the technological changes that have occured in the last 20 years and how they have impacted education. Reform I can see but eliminate it? That would be insane.

I like how you always jump to the criticisms that really impact and have relevance to my life. So much so, that I had thankfully thought out said criticisms before you posted them. Its amazing how much relevance the evangelical right has in my life, on account of my knowing all of their talking points better than you. I swear, its a goddamn conspiracy theory, and we have the regular church-going Mott to muckrake for us...

 

[Mott the Hoople]

First, if you think that teaching is the occupational choice of those wishing to make lots of money you really ought to have you head examined. Second, teachers don't really make all that much money as compared to other occupational groups. Third, whether teachers earn high salaries is not relevant to whether there is lots of money to be made in education. If anyone wanted to open a business for the purpose of making money, opening a school would not rank high on the list. That's my point.

On Milton Friedman, I don't really care about his theories on education.

No shit man. I've been recruited by several school districts as a science teacher but I would have had to take about a 1/3 cut in pay and hell....I can't afford that. You're typical PE makes between 90 and 120 KPY or more....you think one will accept a teaching job at 30 to 40 KPY?

 

[Mott the Hoople]

I like how you always jump to the criticisms that really impact and have relevance to my life. So much so, that I had thankfully thought out said criticisms before you posted them. Its amazing how much relevance the evangelical right has in my life, on account of my knowing all of their talking points better than you. I swear, its a goddamn conspiracy theory, and we have the regular church-going Mott to muckrake for us...

Amen!

 

[Canceled2]

On this we disagree.

I'm wondering which authority sets up your voucher program. State government? Federal government? Local government?

Milwaukee's model is shit. Voucher students perform no better than students in Milwaukee public schools.

http://blogs.edweek.org/edweek/rick...ects_of_milwaukee_vouchers_whats_it_mean.html

Hey! You're right for once. I don't care.

Of course we disagree ...but that does not make you right.

Most voucher programs would be state funded as far as I know. Milwaukee's program is not "shit". Tell me nigey did you actually go to the the University of Arkansas and read all the results? Or did you just trust the bloggers interpretation of one part of the statistical data? Also, with regards to how the program is run i.e. funded and regulated...what did you find out?

Of course you don't care about facts that disagree with your opinions...that's what many posters on here give you shit about regularly.

 

[Bonestorm]

Of course we disagree ...but that does not make you right.

Most voucher programs would be state funded as far as I know. Milwaukee's program is not "shit". Tell me nigey did you actually go the the University of Arkansas and read all the results? Or did you just trust the bloggers interpretation of one part of the statistical data? Also, with regards to how the program is run i.e. funded and regulated...what did you find out?

Of course you don't care about facts that disagree with your opinions...that's what many posters on here give you shit about regularly.

First, the Milwaukee experience with vouchers, showing no improvement among those using vouchers as compared to those staying in Milwaukee public schools is evidence to support my view that vouchers do not work to improve education outcomes.

Second, you haven't presented anything to support your position that vouchers will improve education outcomes. You have cited no facts that support your position.

Third, the "blogger" that I cited was Rick Hess. Rick Hess is a resident scholar at the right-wing American Enterprise Institute and a big proponent of vouchers. I cited to him intentionally because I assumed that you'd take his word for it given his ideology and position on vouchers.

Fourth, I'm not terribly concerned with your opinion of me or the opinions that others on the board hold of me. In fact, I don't value the opinions of idiot or assholes and I think you and many others on this board are either idiots or assholes.

 

[Canceled2]

First, the Milwaukee experience with vouchers, showing no improvement among those using vouchers as compared to those staying in Milwaukee public schools is evidence to support my view that vouchers do not work to improve education outcomes.

Second, you haven't presented anything to support your position that vouchers will improve education outcomes. You have cited no facts that support your position.

Third, the "blogger" that I cited was Rick Hess. Rick Hess is a resident scholar at the right-wing American Enterprise Institute and a big proponent of vouchers. I cited to him intentionally because I assumed that you'd take his word for it given his ideology and position on vouchers.

Fourth, I'm not terribly concerned with your opinion of me or the opinions that others on the board hold of me. In fact, I don't value the opinions of idiot or assholes and I think you and many others on this board are either idiots or assholes.

I asked my question about whether or not you went to and read the entire data collected from the Universities link for a reason nigey. I have no personal problem with the blogger...I acknowledged that he gave interpretation of one part of the statistical data. What you failed to do is note what the rest of the data provided showed- and that the conclusion of the blogger was stiill VERY supportive of vouchers...now why might that be nigey? Also the bloggers conclusion wasn't that school choice or the Milwuakee program was shit- I asked also because I wanted to allow you yet another opportunity to show what a hack you are and that you never are interested in trulydiscussing the pros and cons of anything.

 

[Bonestorm]

I asked my question about whether or not you went to and read the entire data collected from the Universities link for a reason nigey. I have no personal problem with the blogger...I acknowledged that he gave interpretation of one part of the statistical data. What you failed to do is note what the rest of the data provided showed- and that the conclusion of the blogger was stiill VERY supportive of vouchers...now why might that be nigey? Also the bloggers conclusion wasn't that school choice or the Milwuakee program was shit- I asked also because I wanted to allow you yet another opportunity to show what a hack you are and that you never are interested in trulydiscussing the pros and cons of anything.

Which part of the data dispute my conclusion that vouchers do not improve education outcomes?

Your argument is that choice and free market principles, through vouchers, will improve education outcomes. You have no facts or data to support that belief.

 

[Dixie - In Memoriam]

Which part of the data dispute my conclusion that vouchers do not improve education outcomes?

Your argument is that choice and free market principles, through vouchers, will improve education outcomes. You have no facts or data to support that belief.

You have not proven your conclusion. In fact, your conclusion, on its face, is absurd. Free market principles do not exist in Milwaukee, they still have the same public system, it's just being funded by vouchers. The public system is broken, not because it doesn't allow vouchers, but because it is operated by government bureaucrats and political operatives, who have a different agenda than educating our children. Vouchers, on a nationwide scale, would be quite a different story. You would see private sector competition come in and essentially eliminate poor functioning public schools.

There is no data to support something we've never done! The data is pretty clear (by the topic of this thread) as to how well our current system is serving us. In a capitalist free market system, the "customer" would demand excellence in education, or they would go somewhere it was offered, and someone in the free market private sector would certainly be there to offer it. All it takes to understand how the free market would be better than government on this, is plain common billy goat sense. We don't need a study to tell us.

 

[Cancel8]

Nobody who cares about their children's education is being forced to attend failed schools, are they?

How many parents sacrifice financially to give their children a decent education?

 

[Canceled2]

Nobody who cares about their children's education is being forced to attend failed schools, are they?

How many parents sacrifice financially to give their children a decent education?

Those that can afford to.

 

[Canceled2]

You have not proven your conclusion. In fact, your conclusion, on its face, is absurd. Free market principles do not exist in Milwaukee, they still have the same public system, it's just being funded by vouchers. The public system is broken, not because it doesn't allow vouchers, but because it is operated by government bureaucrats and political operatives, who have a different agenda than educating our children. Vouchers, on a nationwide scale, would be quite a different story. You would see private sector competition come in and essentially eliminate poor functioning public schools.

There is no data to support something we've never done! The data is pretty clear (by the topic of this thread) as to how well our current system is serving us. In a capitalist free market system, the "customer" would demand excellence in education, or they would go somewhere it was offered, and someone in the free market private sector would certainly be there to offer it. All it takes to understand how the free market would be better than government on this, is plain common billy goat sense. We don't need a study to tell us.

Actually the problem with the Milwaukee system is that it does not regulate itself and yes, in that way it does still operate like the public system. What I mean by this is that as the blogger notes-The system needs to invest in those private schools that are excelling and implement the winning strategy (which would drastically improve scores as well).

Like the blogger noted-it is not just about end results, but about freeing up the creative ability to be innovative.

If you can- copy send me the pdf files that are obtained through this link. I will PM you an email addy...or if not just read them and you'll see why the blogger still believes vouchers are the answer. I cannot open pdf right now...grrrrrrr.

 

[Cancel8]

Those that can afford to.

Exactly.

And if parents want a private education for their children, in a free market society they are welcome to provide it.