US falls to average in education ranking

signalmankenneth said:
We are becoming a nation of dumbasses, we need to invest more money into our educational system or we will become a big third world toilet, complete with abject poverty too!
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Why is the liberal "solution" to a problem always to throw money at it? Increasing education spending does not inevitably lead to improved academic results. Washington, D.C. schools are among the best funded in the nation, yet they are also among the worst performers.

I was home schooled grades 3 - 10 and while I personally wouldn't home school my kids, it is obvious to me that I received a much better education than any of my friends who attended public schools. Few of them are even able to write a coherent sentence.

What is needed to improve the system is not money, but to get back to basics. For starts, let's cut out the politically correct bullshit, bust the teachers' unions, and stop passing out Ritalin like it's fucking candy.
 
Why have a system at all?

Is the government (at any level) responsible for the education of children and adolescents in America?

Or, should parents be held accountable? If you chose to spawn, why aren't you individually liable for feeding, clothing, and educating your offspring? If you can't, why should society compensate for your lack of planning and preparation?
 
Mojo said:
Why should the government be responsible for your child's education in the first place?
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Because it is in our society's best interest to assure the best education possible for everyone. Government involvement includes things like standardization of curriculum so each child receives what is perceived to be the bassic knowledge set needed to survive, if not thrive, in our society. A well educated people is essential to a democratic republic.

The problem is the public education system has become more concerned with political correctness and "feelings" than education. Couple that with the attitude of pure entitlement brought to us by socialist progressives, that everyone is supposed to be rewarded with all their needs (plus a bunch of wants) just for existing, and we get a deadly mix. The induced expectation of passing grades and other unearned rewards simply for being on the class role sheet evolves into equal demands of entitlement from the post education world.
 
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Good Luck said:
Because it is in our society's best interest to assure the best education possible for everyone. Government involvement includes things like standardization of curriculum so each child receives what is perceived to be the bassic knowledge set needed to survive, if not thrive, in our society. A well educated people is essential to a democratic republic.

The problem is the public education system has become more concerned with political correctness and "feelings" than education. Couple that with the attitude of pure entitlement brought to us by socialist progressives, that everyone is supposed to be rewarded with all their needs (plus a bunch of wants) just for existing, and we get a deadly mix. The induced expectation of passing grades and other unearned rewards simply for being on the class role sheet evolves into equal demands of entitlement from the post education world.
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It seems to me that "to assure the best education possible for everyone" government should be removed from the process.
 
Mojo said:
Why have a system at all?

Is the government (at any level) responsible for the education of children and adolescents in America?

Or, should parents be held accountable? If you chose to spawn, why aren't you individually liable for feeding, clothing, and educating your offspring? If you can't, why should society compensate for your lack of planning and preparation?
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I would like to see much greater competition for the education $.

I had my child in a private school last year but with business so bad I had to send her to a public school this year.

The govt took over $20,000 in taxes from me last year. If I could have kept half that amount, my child would be in private school this year. I'm pretty pissed off about that. Looking at what congress, and state govt does with the money the way they do, I'm really pissed off.
 
Mojo said:
Why have a system at all?

Is the government (at any level) responsible for the education of children and adolescents in America?

Or, should parents be held accountable? If you chose to spawn, why aren't you individually liable for feeding, clothing, and educating your offspring? If you can't, why should society compensate for your lack of planning and preparation?
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I understand your position, and no, the constitution doesn't specify that people are entitled to an education, or that we are obligated to provide one. Nevertheless, a proper education is essential in ones 'pursuit of happiness' in America, or elsewhere. We have an obligation as a society, to support a robust education system, and ensure every child has access to it. Your argument is exactly why I don't support a Federal education system, and this responsibility should be exclusive to the states. Any federal funding, should be done in the form of vouchers, and not through a bloated inefficient bureaucracy that isn't working to educate the children.
 
Liberty said:
I would like to see much greater competition for the education $.

I had my child in a private school last year but with business so bad I had to send her to a public school this year.

The govt took over $20,000 in taxes from me last year. If I could have kept half that amount, my child would be in private school this year. I'm pretty pissed off about that. Looking at what congress, and state govt does with the money the way they do, I'm really pissed off.
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That's too bad.

If you depend on state-funded schools, you are not getting a worthwhile result, according to the data above.

Have you considered moving to another jurisdiction, undertaking home schooling or exploring cooperative educational options with other parents in the same situation?
 
Dixie said:
I understand your position, and no, the constitution doesn't specify that people are entitled to an education, or that we are obligated to provide one. Nevertheless, a proper education is essential in ones 'pursuit of happiness' in America, or elsewhere. We have an obligation as a society, to support a robust education system, and ensure every child has access to it. Your argument is exactly why I don't support a Federal education system, and this responsibility should be exclusive to the states. Any federal funding, should be done in the form of vouchers, and not through a bloated inefficient bureaucracy that isn't working to educate the children.
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The public educational system is largely locally-governed and adminsitered, as I understand it.

I don't feel any "obligation" to financially "support a robust education system", especially since we do not appear to have one.

If the government can't provide an acceptable service, it's time to stop paying for it.

Couldn't parents explore legal actions and pursue electoral remedies to remove tax-levying authority from states and school districts, and use the resulting funds to send their children to a school that gets results?
 
Mojo said:
That's too bad.

Have you considered moving to another jurisdiction, undertaking home schooling or exploring cooperative educational options with other parents in the same situation?
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Yes!

We didn't like the public school we were mandated to send her so we applied for her to go to a public school (district) next to the one we live in, and they oked her to go. It's a much better school than the one we avoided.
 
Mojo said:
The public educational system is largely locally-governed and adminsitered, as I understand it.

I don't feel any "obligation" to financially "support a robust education system", especially since we do not appear to have one.

If the government can't provide an acceptable service, it's time to stop paying for it.

Couldn't parents explore legal actions and pursue electoral remedies to remove tax-levying authority from states and school districts, and use the resulting funds to send their children to a school that gets results?
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With the institution of the Dept. of Education, and bills like PL 94-192, NCLB, etc., a very large degree of local autonomy has been taken away in favor of big government bureaucracy. The fact that performance of the education system has consistently fallen every time the feds stick their mitts in the mix doesn't phase those who like the feds involved in everything.

OTOH, simply doing away with the system completely is hardly the answer. In the days before public education, when it fell to the families as you suggested in post 143, the results were hit-and-miss at best (miss more often than hit). It was not too bad when we were an agronomy with low population and little to no international trade due to transportation difficulties of the pre-industrial age. But such a non system could not possibly work in the societies of today, including ours.

That being said, the original involvement of government in the education system was simply to assure the education system is available to everyone regardless of financial status. The actual education came via local control. When we lost a big part of that local control is when the system started falling apart. And then the "fixes" to the problems took yet more local control away, resulting in yet more problems.

We need to get rid of all but the most basic of centralized controls. They should be limited to assuring a system is available to everyone, and (possibly) a loose framework outlining a basic, minimum curriculum.

But more than that we need to get rid of the ridiculous notion that grading according to performance is somehow harmful to the students who do not perform as well as others. That attitude has just brought about a system that rewards non-performance regardless of ability. And while we're at it, we need to get rid of the ridiculous notion that punishing unacceptable behavior is "wrong".
 
Mojo said:
The public educational system is largely locally-governed and adminsitered, as I understand it.

I don't feel any "obligation" to financially "support a robust education system", especially since we do not appear to have one.

If the government can't provide an acceptable service, it's time to stop paying for it.

Couldn't parents explore legal actions and pursue electoral remedies to remove tax-levying authority from states and school districts, and use the resulting funds to send their children to a school that gets results?
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I see several problems with what you're saying here. First of all, it doesn't matter what you, as an individual, feels about what our collective government supports. You can vote, you can organize protest, but if your fellow neighbors don't agree with your feelings, you don't get your way. We decided a long time ago, it is fundamentally important for our communities to provide a good educational infrastructure, and it is key in unlocking opportunities to realize the American Dream. So we have education being funded at the federal, state, and local levels.

We can imagine all kinds of unrealistic scenarios that are never going to happen, but it won't help to address this problem, and is a pointless waste of time. People won't just stop paying school taxes, or get the courts to say they aren't obligated to pay them. However, we can, through our representatives, lobby for education reform which includes vouchers. Instead of our tax money being filtered through the Fed, then State, and then Local governments, it would be returned to is in the form of a voucher. I don't even think we should completely abolish the DoE, just greatly reform it and remove it from control of the money and mandates. What's wrong with our schools is a total lack of competence and too much meaningless regulation. From bottom to top, schools are operated by government-loving pinheads, who simply want to continue the system as it is, but with more money. Improving education is just not a priority in such an environment, and that needs to change, if we ever expect our children to reach educational excellence.
 
Dixie said:
I see several problems with what you're saying here. First of all, it doesn't matter what you, as an individual, feels about what our collective government supports. You can vote, you can organize protest, but if your fellow neighbors don't agree with your feelings, you don't get your way. We decided a long time ago, it is fundamentally important for our communities to provide a good educational infrastructure, and it is key in unlocking opportunities to realize the American Dream. So we have education being funded at the federal, state, and local levels.

We can imagine all kinds of unrealistic scenarios that are never going to happen, but it won't help to address this problem, and is a pointless waste of time. People won't just stop paying school taxes, or get the courts to say they aren't obligated to pay them. However, we can, through our representatives, lobby for education reform which includes vouchers. Instead of our tax money being filtered through the Fed, then State, and then Local governments, it would be returned to is in the form of a voucher. I don't even think we should completely abolish the DoE, just greatly reform it and remove it from control of the money and mandates. What's wrong with our schools is a total lack of competence and too much meaningless regulation. From bottom to top, schools are operated by government-loving pinheads, who simply want to continue the system as it is, but with more money. Improving education is just not a priority in such an environment, and that needs to change, if we ever expect our children to reach educational excellence.
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You are correct, yet since this is a political debate forum I enjoy presenting an argument from time to time.
 
Voltaire said:
But where is the DoE authorized in the Constitution?
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I think, like most Americans, it is authorized under "providing for the general welfare." That is, providing that's what the DoE is doing, which it's currently not. Like I said, I don't advocate abolishing the DoE, and frankly, I think such talk is pointless. The DoE will be in this president's budget, the next president, and the one after that. It's not going to be eliminated, and that is something you guys just need to face. You may want it to be, and you may find it isn't authorized or whatever, but the department exists already, and that will probably not change. What CAN change, is how the funding structures work, who retains the power. If we return the school funding to the people in the form of vouchers, the power will rest again with the people, not school boards or departments of education.
 
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