US falls to average in education ranking

Socrtease said:
The Scientists that actually sent those men to the moon, the real hardcore ones, that new their rocketry up one side and down the other, were mostly products of a German education system. Without the men from Penemunde the US space program would have been further behind. They came from a system that had ONE minister of education and ONE standard even all the way back then. The Prussian system was rigorous. So while there were alot of good American scientists at NASA, the best were men like Werner Von Braun and Gunter Wendt. "I vunder vhere Gunter vent?" One of my favorite lines from Apollo 13.
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That type of schooling produced nationalists. Which ultimately led to their demise. I see your point, but your point points out the overall failure of that type of system. They didn't question enough, and looked for leadership more than ultimately being leaders. Their schools turned out a bunch of ants with a some golden nuggets.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
That's just complete and total empty rhetoric and it's utterly devoid of fact. Ya'll just want to hold eveyone and their brother accountable for the decline in science and math education in this nation but the people who need to be held responsible. Parents!

First the Dept. of Education goes back to 1867. It's primary role then, as now, was to collect national data about education and teaching so as to provide standards that would promote affective education in this nation. It just didn't become a cabinet level agency until 1980.

Let's be clear about the agenda of those who want to get rid of the Dept. of Education. They want to get rid of the department of education because they oppose current educational standards, particularly science standards, and want to be able to replace those with religiously driven standards that violate our constitutional law. Their second agenda for getting rid of the Dept. of Education is so that can be free to deny access to a quality education to groups and individuals they would prefer to see not educated. Thats the primary agenda that most white southern conservatives have for opposing and wanting to eliminate the Dept of Education.

Thank God we do have a Dept of Education to enforce the law and educational standards and equal access to affective education for our citizens. I can think of no group more hell bent on undermining science education and access to a quality education for minorities and the poor then conservative ideologues.
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I disagree. I think the department of education is producing an ant farm for the most part.
 
Mott the Hoople said:
That's just complete and total empty rhetoric and it's utterly devoid of fact. Ya'll just want to hold eveyone and their brother accountable for the decline in science and math education in this nation but the people who need to be held responsible. Parents!

First the Dept. of Education goes back to 1867. It's primary role then, as now, was to collect national data about education and teaching so as to provide standards that would promote affective education in this nation. It just didn't become a cabinet level agency until 1980.

Let's be clear about the agenda of those who want to get rid of the Dept. of Education. They want to get rid of the department of education because they oppose current educational standards, particularly science standards, and want to be able to replace those with religiously driven standards that violate our constitutional law. Their second agenda for getting rid of the Dept. of Education is so that can be free to deny access to a quality education to groups and individuals they would prefer to see not educated. Thats the primary agenda that most white southern conservatives have for opposing and wanting to eliminate the Dept of Education.

Thank God we do have a Dept of Education to enforce the law and educational standards and equal access to affective education for our citizens. I can think of no group more hell bent on undermining science education and access to a quality education for minorities and the poor then conservative ideologues.
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Mott, read the title of the thread again and the OP, the reason people want to get rid of the DoE, is because the DoE is failing at educating our children. You make a lot of 'broad-brush' claims here, and it insults my intelligence. For example, I see no evidence for this contingent of people who secretly want to change the education system because they want children to be brainwashed with religion. Maybe they're out there, but I don't see them, and those are not the complaints we hear about the system, on this board or elsewhere. I'm not an expert on this, but I suppose the folks who determine where American students are, in terms of educational standards, compared with the rest of the world, don't have any criteria determined by your beliefs in Jay-zus! So what you claim the people are wanting, is something that is completely illogical. Now, why would you make such an illogical claim, and try to pass it off as truth? Hmm.. looks like you hate religion, Mott.

You can go back to 1867 or back to the late 1700s, we've always understood the importance of a good education. We've always aspired to educate our youth in the best way possible. I think good education is the one true universal issue we share as Americans, no one thinks we shouldn't try to provide the best opportunity to get the best education, for every American. Just because we've done something a certain way for a really long time, doesn't mean it's the best way to do it now... Damo would call you a conservative!
 
I should be able to deduct my childs privet educational costs from my taxes. But the more they take, the more dependent I become on them in providing what me, and my wife are really responsible for.
 
Liberty said:
I should be able to deduct my childs privet educational costs from my taxes. But the more they take, the more dependent I become on them in providing what me, and my wife are really responsible for.
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Why should you "be able to deduct my childs privet (sic) educational costs from my taxes"?
 
Rana said:
I hate organized religion, not ashamed to say so, either!
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So what? The claim that those who wish to bring about significant change in the public education system do so out of a desire to instill religious education is completely unsupportable, and therefore has no bearing on the overall topic of our education system.
 
Mojo said:
Why should you "be able to deduct my childs privet (sic) educational costs from my taxes"?
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To make private education more affordable to more people - the same reason college tuition is, in many cases, a tax deductible expense, as is interest payments on educational loans.
 
Good Luck said:
To make private education more affordable to more people - the same reason college tuition is, in many cases, a tax deductible expense, as is interest payments on educational loans.
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Why should the government be responsible for your child's education in the first place?
 
Mojo said:
Why should you "be able to deduct my childs privet (sic) educational costs from my taxes"?
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I'm not responsible for your child.

Maybe you ment to say, "Why should you "be able to deduct your childs privet (sic) educational costs from your taxes"?

I pay property taxes that go to the school district I live in. I could see paying these taxes if my child goes to one of these schools, but if I want to send my child to a private school I shouldn't have to pay the property taxes and for the private school as well. This would help those who wanted to get their child(ren) out of the public union schools and create more competition which might make the public union schools do a better job. Probably not though. Union schools, and unions are known for producing less good quality results, and are more costly.
 
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Liberty said:
I'm not responsible for your child.

Maybe you ment to say, "Why should you "be able to deduct your childs privet (sic) educational costs from your taxes"?

I pay property taxes that go to the school district I live in. I could see paying these taxes if my child goes to one of these schools, but if I want to send my child to a privet school I shouldn't have to pay the property taxes and for the privet school as well. This would help those who wanted to get their child(ren) out of the public union schools and create more competition which might make the public union schools do a better job. Probably not though. Union schools, and unions are known for producing less good quality results, and are more costly.
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Are you trying to say "private" school?

Again, my question is this - why is the government in charge of education?
 
Mojo said:
Are you trying to say "private" school?

Again, my question is this - why is the government in charge of education?
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Damn!:mad:

Yes. I guess I'm the product of a none union public school.

That being said, I didn't see you ask "why is the government in charge of education."

Great question. My best answer is because of taxes, and we as a society have set things up this way to make education a reality for kids.

If you have anything to add as to why, feel free.
 
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Tired cliches is the best answer from most Americans, especially on the right. But knowing lots of teachers, last evening we dined with five, the problem is America's love of wealth and its hatred of hard work and responsibility. Children can do no wrong according to today's parents, they are allowed to speak their minds even when nothing is on their mind. The upper classes with money are the same as the knuckleheads at the bottom, neither think much of education - period. Difference though is the upper classes have enough education, money, and connections to make it. And there are also the smart and intelligent who can make too.

Americans always look for the magic bullet or they point fingers at unions, never approaching the mirror where the real problem lies. See only 'waiting for superman' for the usual pablum. Plus every one gets rich throwing or hitting a ball, or singing, right?

http://www.thenation.com/article/154986/grading-waiting-superman

"Here's what you don't see: the four out of five charters that are no better, on average, than traditional neighborhood public schools (and are sometimes much worse); charter school teachers, like those at the Green Dot schools in Los Angeles, who are unionized and like it that way; and noncharter neighborhood public schools, like PS 83 in East Harlem and the George Hall Elementary School in Mobile, Alabama, that are nationally recognized for successfully educating poor children.....

You also don't learn that in the Finnish education system, much cited in the film as the best in the world, teachers are—gasp!—unionized and granted tenure, and families benefit from a cradle-to-grave social welfare system that includes universal daycare, preschool and healthcare, all of which are proven to help children achieve better results at school." Dana Goldstein
 
midcan5 said:
You also don't learn that in the Finnish education system, much cited in the film as the best in the world, teachers are—gasp!—unionized and granted tenure, and families benefit from a cradle-to-grave social welfare system that includes universal daycare, preschool and healthcare, all of which are proven to help children achieve better results at school." Dana Goldstein
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I heard this morning that voters in a California school district voted out the school union. I bet this becomes a trend, as people are getting fed up with union control, the bad results associated with them, and the high cost without much accountability. Not to mention the money going to politicians to inact legislation that most people are against.

Face it dude, public unions are becoming an unpopular thing.
 
Liberty said:
Damn!:mad:

Yes. I guess I'm the product of a none union public school.

That being said, I didn't see you ask "why is the government in charge of education."

Great question. My best answer is because of taxes, and we as a society have set things up this way to make education a reality for kids.

If you have anything to add as to why, feel free.
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The "reality" of public, tax-funded education doesn't seem to be very effective, does it?

I found a website with an interesting message at

http://www.schoolandstate.org/Fritz/WhoIsResponsible.htm
 
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