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PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch,



The payback to society is worth the government providing a useful education for good workers, whether they are trade or higher education jobs.

-The government gets more revenue because higher-paid workers pay higher taxes for the rest of their working career.

-The government has lower expenses for police, courts, and prisons because when people make good money they have less reason to get in trouble with the law.

There certainly is no such thing as free, but there just as certainly is such a thing as pay-back.:clink:
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Agreed on the logic. The bean counters have to figure out the cost/benefit analysis. Paying $50K/year for 1000 students where 40% drop out means $20M taxpayer dollars are flushed every year.


Everyone who went to college probably knows dropouts.

https://educationdata.org/college-dropout-rates
Report Highlights. In the United States, the overall dropout rate for undergraduate college students is 40%.

  • 30% of the dropout rate comes from college freshman dropping out before their sophomore year.
  • In 4-year colleges, 56% of students drop out within 6 years.
  • Black students had the highest college dropout rate at 54%.
  • 38% of college dropouts – the largest majority – said they left due to financial pressure.


Again, I favor better educational tools. Online is the best bang for the buck. Promising students who prove themselves can qualify for a boost.
 
PoliTalker said:
Hello Dutch,

Let the zero fee tuition program cover 4-year community colleges, not free room and board at the state level. It's up to the college to create and enforce rules. Let the students in the program prove they deserve their education by maintaining a minimum GPA and staying out of trouble.
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Brick and mortar schools are old school thinking. They still have a purpose. Labs and tests still need to be completed, but online learning is a great shit screen to identify those students most worthy of my tax dollars. :)
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Brick and mortar schools are old school thinking. They still have a purpose. Labs and tests still need to be completed, but online learning is a great shit screen to identify those students most worthy of my tax dollars. :)
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Why not do as Germany does and test kids for university aptitude in h.s.? It's actually a series of tests, plus their grades, that determine if they're university material. If not, trade schools are also free. You can still go to university even if you don't qualify for free tuition; but you have to pay your way.

Online courses are good for those ppl who are self-regulated and disciplined. Most teenagers though benefit from in-person classes, at least for the first couple of years. A lot of stuff just doesn't work as well as distance learning. I felt like my first Anthro/Archeology class lacked depth because we had to do it via Zoom. We could not see or handle the artifacts, skulls, and other objects in the lab where the class was taught from. The prof walked around with his laptop and pointed it at things, but it's not the same. Plus we couldn't do the group activities and presentations that are required in most college classes these days. We did a couple using Google docs but again, not the same.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Why not do as Germany does and test kids for university aptitude in h.s.? It's actually a series of tests, plus their grades, that determine if they're university material. If not, trade schools are also free. You can still go to university even if you don't qualify for free tuition; but you have to pay your way.

Online courses are good for those ppl who are self-regulated and disciplined. Most teenagers though benefit from in-person classes, at least for the first couple of years. A lot of stuff just doesn't work as well as distance learning. I felt like my first Anthro/Archeology class lacked depth because we had to do it via Zoom. We could not see or handle the artifacts, skulls, and other objects in the lab where the class was taught from. The prof walked around with his laptop and pointed it at things, but it's not the same. Plus we couldn't do the group activities and presentations that are required in most college classes these days. We did a couple using Google docs but again, not the same.
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A better system, but still old school thinking. The first two years of college are all core classes anyway. That can be done online to see who rates a four year degree at taxpayer expense.

Again, I can see online education being "free" with a small fee for tests or labs. Labs can also be covered by students doing work to support the lab. Student pilots who can't afford flight lessons will work for an FBO washing and gassing up airplanes for flight time.

If a student is so ill-disciplined that they can't be trusted to do an online course, why the heck would anyone give them $50K/year of "free college"???

IMO, human beings don't appreciate things they are given as much as those things they had to earn.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
They showed some fat moron on the news last night who claims to be heading over there to fight. The reporter asked him what if he gets injured/wounded, what then? He just shrugged, said he had no family, wife, kids so why not?

Just what the defenders need -- some non-trained idiot who thinks he's Rambo and has no idea about warfare, following orders, military discipline, etc. Sheesh.
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So people against the war are bad. And people who go fight should be shit on. Got it.

You're a retard.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
A better system, but still old school thinking. The first two years of college are all core classes anyway. That can be done online to see who rates a four year degree at taxpayer expense.

Again, I can see online education being "free" with a small fee for tests or labs. Labs can also be covered by students doing work to support the lab. Student pilots who can't afford flight lessons will work for an FBO washing and gassing up airplanes for flight time.

If a student is so ill-disciplined that they can't be trusted to do an online course, why the heck would anyone give them $50K/year of "free college"???

IMO, human beings don't appreciate things they are given as much as those things they had to earn.
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I'm curious as to why you think online courses could be "free" but not in-person. They still require instructors, preparation, textbooks, testing, grading, equipment, etc.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
I'm curious as to why you think online courses could be "free" but not in-person. They still require instructors, preparation, textbooks, testing, grading, equipment, etc.
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The costs drop dramatically with online instruction since it's one lesson plan/one course that can be accessed by the planet's billions. The physical cost comes down to one school that conducts all of a city or county's testing and labs. The less buildings the less maintenance bills, the less utility bills, the less insurance cost, etc., etc.

It's also "Greener" if that makes any difference to you. Burning gas to drive a round trip twice per semester or once a week for labs versus 5 days a week for the entire semester.




Look at the courses available at Khan Academy for a sample of possibilities: https://www.khanacademy.org/


When I was working, our annual training had about 16 hours of computerized education/testing. Over the years our training went from 10 days of classes to three days of classes..mostly "lab" stuff like emergency exits, putting out fires, hijacking stuff, etc. plus testing. It saved the company a ton of money to have Computer Based Training (CBT).
 
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Dutch Uncle said:
The costs drop dramatically with online instruction since it's one lesson plan/one course that can be accessed by the planet's billions. The physical cost comes down to one school that conducts all of a city or county's testing and labs. The less buildings the less maintenance bills, the less utility bills, the less insurance cost, etc., etc.

It's also "Greener" if that makes any difference to you. Burning gas to drive a round trip twice per semester or once a week for labs versus 5 days a week for the entire semester.




Look at the courses available at Khan Academy for a sample of possibilities: https://www.khanacademy.org/


When I was working, our annual training had about 16 hours of computerized education/testing. Over the years our training went from 10 days of classes to three days of classes..mostly "lab" stuff like emergency exits, putting out fires, hijacking stuff, etc. plus testing. It saved the company a ton of money to have Computer Based Training (CBT).
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Good luck with this plan. Each college/university will want their own set-up, their own professors, their own curriculum. Then there's accreditation. Khan Academy is NOT accredited and cannot bestow degrees.* About the only way around this would be a government-run and accredited school that could be accessed by all. This will, of course, trigger the Reichtards into screaming about "government indoctrination," even worse than they do now. So now you have TWO problems -- convincing the idiots that two years of higher education at no cost to the students is a good thing, and having its programs and accreditation with govt. oversight. Despite 50 years of evidence to the contrary (and their own experience), most of them believe Medicare is a horrible program.

* "Khan Academy is not an accredited school and work done on the site does not count towards a diploma or degree program. Khan Academy is best used as a supplement to your normal schooling, whether that is homeschooling or a traditional school."
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Good luck with this plan. Each college/university will want their own set-up, their own professors, their own curriculum. Then there's accreditation. Khan Academy is NOT accredited and cannot bestow degrees.* About the only way around this would be a government-run and accredited school that could be accessed by all. This will, of course, trigger the Reichtards into screaming about "government indoctrination," even worse than they do now. So now you have TWO problems -- convincing the idiots that two years of higher education at no cost to the students is a good thing, and having its programs and accreditation with govt. oversight. Despite 50 years of evidence to the contrary (and their own experience), most of them believe Medicare is a horrible program.

* "Khan Academy is not an accredited school and work done on the site does not count towards a diploma or degree program. Khan Academy is best used as a supplement to your normal schooling, whether that is homeschooling or a traditional school."
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Let them. I'm not a fucking liberal seeking to nationalize the university system. I'm working with you on how best to establish a national college education system that is low cost to taxpayer yet remains effective in allowing anyone who has the inclination to obtain a higher education.

It appears you and other Democrats are totally focused upon taking $50K/year per student out of taxpayer pockets to send any kid who wants to hang out in college four years a free ride.

First, interesting you went to the negative on Khan Academy. It was an example. Obviously you are totally against online education; you want full brick and mortar free college or nothing.

Second, by standing firm on "free college" at a university or nothing, you are condemning the idea to doing nothing.
 
Dutch Uncle said:
Let them. I'm not a fucking liberal seeking to nationalize the university system. I'm working with you on how best to establish a national college education system that is low cost to taxpayer yet remains effective in allowing anyone who has the inclination to obtain a higher education.

It appears you and other Democrats are totally focused upon taking $50K/year per student out of taxpayer pockets to send any kid who wants to hang out in college four years a free ride.

First, interesting you went to the negative on Khan Academy. It was an example. Obviously you are totally against online education; you want full brick and mortar free college or nothing.

Second, by standing firm on "free college" at a university or nothing, you are condemning the idea to doing nothing.
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So you don't want to nationalize colleges, you just want to national colleges. Gotit.
 
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