Was FDR a fascist?

[Timshel]

Partisan BS? I am neither a socialist nor a fascist.

I am not saying you are. My point was that the differences you point to were nothing but partisan fights between him and other socialists.

Basically, your position is that any two ideologies that share a common feature are the same. It's nonsense for obvious reasons.

No, my position is the two ideologies that share essentially the same basic principles are essentially the same. I have already made that clear.

In my view, Socialism (or one could say collectivism) is like a parent to children of fascism, modern socialism and communism. They are not identical, but they are essentially the same and spring from the same root ideas.

More detailed reasons can be found in the rather short text to which I have referred you (and really, coming from the guy that links to extensive works of Austrian school philosophical pieces it's rich that you refuse to look into it).

I mean, if I wanted to intelligently discuss a certain ideology or theory I would first become familiar with that ideology or theory.

Okay, well I understood it to be a book. If it is something short, I will look for it, but I serisously doubt it's going to change my understanding.

 

[FUCK THE POLICE]

I am not saying you are. My point was that the differences you point to were nothing but partisan fights between him and other socialists.



No, my position is the two ideologies that share essentially the same basic principles are essentially the same. I have already made that clear.

In my view, Socialism (or one could say collectivism) is like a parent to children of fascism, modern socialism and communism. They are not identical, but they are essentially the same and spring from the same root ideas.



Okay, well I understood it to be a book. If it is something short, I will look for it, but I serisously doubt it's going to change my understanding.

Nazism was basically social democracy with nationalism mixed in.

 

[Epicurus]

Mussolini rewrote fascism as he went along, so honestly I would look at My Autobiography (though he is quite dishonest about his past in it).

Another worthwhile read on the subject is The Birth of Fascist Ideology, From Cultural Rebellion to Political Revolution.

 

[Minister of Truth]

In those days The South was run by a few thousand wealthy land owners. They were overwhelmingly of English ancestry and controlled the rich bottom lands, located in the east in Virginia and the Carolinas, and the southern sections of Georgia, Alabama, and most of Mississippi. When German immigrants moved in to claim land they were forced into the less fertile Piedmont. When the Scots-Irish moved in they populated the Piedmont and the Mountain regions. It was either that or work as sharecroppers working under the racist English descendents and trying to compete in controlled markets and against slave labor. It wasn’t just the black race that were hated and kept from economic advancement.

Thus the Piedmont and Mountain folk lived in a completely different world than the English descendents. Most were subsistence farmers and few, if any, owned slaves. They were mostly isolated from the political issues of the day. When the war came it was seen for what it was: a cause that wasn’t theirs. Few enlisted and many worked as spies or actively fought for the Union.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upland_South

So when I say that The South is the Cradle of Freedom I’m referring to the regions that I call home. We didn’t just fight against the British but for the free market system and against bigotry itself.

There was virtual exodus of ethnic minorities from the South during the 1830's-60's into the territories, and somewhat into the North. They, of course, had the freedom to leave. And they were treated poorly be the people in general. Also, when idiots in the South refer to their "heritage" they refer to the Antebellum South, so even if it was in fact ruled by a wealthy elite out of touch with the "commn mann," that is the society they are cheerleading. I have never heard someone refer to a Southern heritage that, after the war, said, "look, our region has been a POS and now we are going to make it a land of freedom and liberty." And the Rebel Flag needs to go. Its still infesting some state capitals and countless more bumpers (bumper stickers are very much representative of the people and not the elites btw).

 

[gonzojournals]

When the one thing happens to be the definition of fascism, yes, it does. Fascism is a system that leaves property in private ownership yet directs its use through heavy regulation and direction by central planners.

Your definition seems to be based on how well it worked or some personality nonsense. I don't give a crap about personality. I don't give a crap if you liked FDR. I am attacking the insane notion you presented that fascism is effective economics. It is not and FDR's reign is a good example of how it fails.

Yes, FDR was a socialist douchebag as was Hitler.

FDR's reign of socialism and this one "fascist" program you have found is not a lithmus test for fascism in general-- for one, you vastly ignore the economies of both Germany and Italy.

 

[gonzojournals]

Fascism is a form of socialism. Marxism and communism are some other forms.

Wrong again. Fascism is a rejection of Marxism, communism, and socialism. There may be some overlap and some shades of grey involved, but they are separate systems.

 

[gonzojournals]

Wiki (and the actual source here is EB for those who hate wiki and don't understand how to criticize a source) nails it with the first paragraph.



Fascism clearly falls within that.

No, it doesn't. There is no redistribution of wealth in Fascism.

 

[gonzojournals]

Never really studied him much. Again, I don't give a damn about the personalities. But, it appears he showed some hostility towards Socialists parties, not the ideas. He was raised socialist, wrote for socialist papers and does not appear to have ever actually abandoned the principle ideals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini

And then his ejection from the party and subsequent ideological changes led to Fascism...you cannot remain entirely ignorant of Fascism then go around claiming to be an expert.

You are comparing only totalitarianism, not Fascism.

 

[gonzojournals]

And they do not simply share a common feature. The bedrock principle of socialism is found in fascism.

Socialism refers to a broad array of ideologies and political movements with the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community.

AGAIN YOU ARE WRONG.

WEALTH IS NOT REDISTRIBUTED IN FASCISM, AND NEITHER IS PROPERTY SHARED BY THE COMMUNITY.

 

[gonzojournals]

Pretensions are not debate. Of what specific am I unaware?

All of them, pretty much.

I aint about to read some evil dumbasses book.

Which is why you should just go ahead and shut up on the subject. You are as bad as the people who oppose Harry Potter. "That book is the devil!"
"Have you read it?"
"Well, no..."

I know he supported SEVERE subordination of individual interests for the interests of the collective and central planning. That's enough for me to reject his ideas for both moral and pragmatic reasons.

He supported subordination of individual interests but not of individual wealth, profit, or ownership.

Further, it fits in the broader definition of socialism as I understand it.

Then you don't understand Fascism.

I have presented that definition from a widely accepted source. Tell me where I am wrong on the essentials?

You have presented the definition of socialism and decided that it meets the definition of Fascism-- it doesn't.

The fact that Mussolini dressed his guys in black and hated the leader of the other socialists who threatened his power grabs is NOT an essential difference. It's personality and partisan BS.

No, it isn't cult of personality to actually READ WHAT THE GUY THAT INVENTED IT WROTE. Cult of personality would be worshipping Mussolini-- reading his text so that you don't look like a dumbass online is not forming a cult of personality, it is avoiding looking as retarded as you do right now.

 

[gonzojournals]

As I have pointed out before, the Bloods hate the Cryps. Does not mean they are not both criminal gangs and essentially the same.

I assume, though, that we could agree that the Crips (correct spelling), Bloods, and Mafia are distinct criminal organisations despite all being involved in illegal operations.

 

[Litmus]

He supported subordination of individual interests but not of individual wealth, profit, or ownership.

.

What you're trying to say here is that only the interests of wealthy owners are served. You're immoral blight on the face of humanity.

 

[gonzojournals]

What you're trying to say here is that only the interests of wealthy owners are served. You're immoral blight on the face of humanity.

No, what I'm trying to say is that the government did not infringe on the right to own property or the free market. It did help shape the direction of industry, but never actually assumed ownership of the companies.

Whether I am immoral or not, there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[Timshel]

FDR's reign of socialism and this one "fascist" program you have found is not a lithmus test for fascism in general-- for one, you vastly ignore the economies of both Germany and Italy.

You are not making an argument here, just an assertion. Vague claims do not cut it. What I am ignoring about the economies of Germany and Italy?

You act like the NRA was some small little side program. I offered that one because it is clearly fascist. The WPA, his nationalization of gold and silver, the massive propaganda campaigns, erection of monuments and many other things have close parallels to the fascist policies and works of Mussolini and Hitler.

http://www.reason.com/news/show/122026.html

 

[Litmus]

No, what I'm trying to say is that the government did not infringe on the right to own property or the free market. It did help shape the direction of industry, but never actually assumed ownership of the companies.

Control is what matters. Fascism is totalitarianism with a certain segment of society bought off by being allowed to personally profit from the success of the totalitarian mercantilist statist venture.

Whether I am immoral or not, there is nothing you can do about it.

I can keep pointing it out. ANd I will continue to do so, fascist prick.

 

[gonzojournals]

You are not making an argument here, just an assertion. Vague claims do not cut it.

Vague claims like "Fascism is just a type of socialism"?

You are the one that should be defending statements in this thread, not me.

And you are ignoring the massive success of their economies, if you must know. Do you think America could have pulled out of the massive inflation of post-WWI Germany or fight WWII against the same odds that Germany did?

EDIT: By the way, that post took 30 minutes to write?

 

[gonzojournals]

Control is what matters. Fascism is totalitarianism with a certain segment of society bought off by being allowed to personally profit from the success of the totalitarian mercantilist statist venture.

No, fascism is a free-enterprise system of authoritarian government, largely a rejection of Marxism while also rejecting the exploitation of unchecked Capitalism.

I can keep pointing it out. ANd I will continue to do so, fascist prick.

All you keep pointing out is that you know words like "mercantile" and "wealth"...you have yet to make an argument that doesn't sound like something a homeless man would mutter while smoking a cigarette.

 

[Litmus]

No, fascism is a free-enterprise system of authoritarian government, largely a rejection of Marxism while also rejecting the exploitation of unchecked Capitalism.

It's an elitist system of totalitarian control where those at the bottom are used as tools to promote and enhance the security and wealth of those at the top. There's nothing noble about it. It's not a "good" idea, per se.

All you keep pointing out is that you know words like "mercantile" and "wealth"...you have yet to make an argument that doesn't sound like something a homeless man would mutter while smoking a cigarette.

All I keep doing is kicking your ass all over this board while you act like a homosexual retard.

 

[gonzojournals]

It's an elitist system of totalitarian control where those at the bottom are used as tools to promote and enhance the security and wealth of those at the top. There's nothing noble about it. It's not a "good" idea, per se.

It is a system where the welfare of the lower classes is ensured while the rights of the wealthy are not infringed upon, and nothing more.

All I keep doing is kicking your ass all over this board while you act like a homosexual retard.

Many people on occasion kick my ass on this board-- you are not, have not been, and never will be one of them. Good job looking like a homophobe, though.

 

[Litmus]

It is a system where the welfare of the lower classes is ensured while the rights of the wealthy are not infringed upon, and nothing more.

Will the Conditions of Servitude, and The Rights of the Wealthy be two separate documents?

Many people on occasion kick my ass on this board-- you are not, have not been, and never will be one of them. Good job looking like a homophobe, though.

Oh no, I've done gone and looked like a homophobe. Whatever shall I do? Keep kicking your ass I guess.