We need Socialism. Socialism Is A Good Thing. Socialism Promotes The General Welfare.

[PoliTalker]

There is a long standing Conservative Myth that we have to choose between socialism and capitalism. Some say socialism is like a cancerous disease that, once begun, grows and grows until it chokes capitalism to death and destroys the economy.

False and false.

Socialism is working very well in most industrialized nations. The USA is the only highly industrialized nation which does not have a socialist universal health care system.

We have had socialism in the USA for a long time now.

Even back when most Trump supporters would say 'America was great.' (the 1950's?)

We had social security and a minimum wage. Neither of those things is the result of capitalism.

The (socialism again) GI Bill saved millions of returning American vets from poverty. It allowed them to get an education, get a job, get a mortgage, get a home, and build wealth. (White Americans, anyway - blacks were redlined OUT of home ownership, the primary vehicle to wealth for most Americans.)

FDR: One of the greatest Presidents ever. He brought us through the big war, brought us socialism to save us from the ravages of Great Depression.

Socialism has lots of promises and benefits but socialism cannot be our only solution.

Capitalism is our primary wealth generator. Capitalism is a powerful engine of motivation and productivity.

How do we decide between the two?

That's a trick question.

We don't have to pick one.

We can have BOTH!

We already do.

The trick is to get the correct balance between the two. We just need the proper blend of capitalism and socialism. We can work jobs, pay into the system, and let the system take care of the needy. Everyone wins!

We need to be talking more and more about how socialism can work for us. We need to move beyond the limiting old Conservative Myths that are supporting the Class War and wealth extraction.

Corporations and the super-rich extract far more of our wealth than socialism. We need to face up to the facts here. The government doesn't want your money. The government uses the money it collects to do good, and always end up in the hole anyway. (because of the chintzy super-rich never want to pay enough taxes!) Corporations and the super-rich take your money and keep it for themselves. They take the government's money. They can't get enough. If you've got it, they want it. And they are very diabolical about getting what they want.

We need a socialist health care system. It is wrong for people to think of healing as a way to get rich. It is wrong for corporations to be making billions of dollars on the 'business' of providing health care. Health care in the USA should be a RIGHT. We can put a man on the moon; we can do this.

The capitalist model cannot work well for that because there is no way to have basic competition. Something happens and you're rushed off to the hospital, you don't spring up out of the gurney and say: "WAIT! I want to shop around and see which is the best deal in hospitals!" It's not like you're laying on the ground and waving off the first few EMT's because they charge too much. That's ridiculous. Who calls around to doctor offices for prices? "How much do you charge for treatment if I have a stroke?" No. That's ridiculous. Capitalism doesn't work for that.

We need Socialism in the USA.

 

[Cypress]

From what I can tell, there are still elderly teabaggers who think if they holler "Socialism!", it carries some radioactive, disparaging, even frightening red scare imagery and undertones with it. They got political mileage out of it for many decades. As late as the 1990s, they were calling the uber-centrist Bill Clinton a "socialist" whenever their base needed red meat tossed to them.

You can actually tell who on this board is is over the age of 60 based on their use of archaic and outdated cold war lexicon like "Bolshevik", "commie", "statist", "socialist", "Marxist-Leninist".

These days, I do not think anyone under the age of 50 retains any residual Cold War revulsion to the word "socialism". In fact, I believe there is polling that suggests millennials find the word "capitalism" more repulsive than socialism.
Near as I can tell, only teabagging octogenarian old farts are still living with the Red Scare in their own minds!

 

[Ross Dolan]

From what I can tell, there are still elderly teabaggers who think if they holler "Socialism!", it carries some radioactive, disparaging, even frightening red scare imagery and undertones with it. They got political mileage out of it for many decades. As late as the 1990s, they were calling the uber-centrist Bill Clinton a "socialist" whenever their base needed red meat tossed to them.

You can actually tell who on this board is is over the age of 60 based on their use of archaic and outdated cold war lexicon like "Bolshevik", "commie", "statist", "socialist", "Marxist-Leninist".

These days, I do not think anyone under the age of 50 retains any residual Cold War revulsion to the word "socialism". In fact, I believe there is polling that suggests millennials find the word "capitalism" more repulsive than socialism.
Near as I can tell, only teabagging octogenarian old farts are still living with the Red Scare in their own minds!

I was going to "thank" that post...until the last line.

I'm 82...and fuck the "red scare."

Capitalism of the type we have...SCARES ME MORE.

Donald, the abomination, Trump...SCARES ME MORE.

Healthcare should indeed be taken out of the Capitalistic realm...and moved to a right.

Sufficient food for each individual should be move there next.

An education for every person who wants it...should also.

And, of course, there are others.

The basic needs of a decent life should be met for everyone...then the greedy can fight to get as much of the plenty that will be left.

 

[Cypress]

I was going to "thank" that post...until the last line.

I'm 82...and fuck the "red scare."

Capitalism of the type we have...SCARES ME MORE.

Donald, the abomination, Trump...SCARES ME MORE.

Healthcare should indeed be taken out of the Capitalistic realm...and moved to a right.

Sufficient food for each individual should be move there next.

An education for every person who wants it...should also.

And, of course, there are others.

The basic needs of a decent life should be met for everyone...then the greedy can fight to get as much of the plenty that will be left.

Good points...all!

I did make it a point to make the statement about "teabagging" old farts.

One can be 82, while being neither a teabagger nor an old fart.
Quite a few of our older citizens are liberal minded, young at heart, and enlightened. Surprisingly, almost none of them vote Republican or support Trump.

 

[Fentoine Lum]

Predatory redistributive capitalism relies upon the masses being divided and working against each other in support of their own subjugation. If they stop competing against each other and begin cooperating amongst themselves while shunning the competition mindfuck, the feudal lords' house of cards would crumble via attrition caused by mass noncooperation and nonparticipation.

 

[evince]

I was going to "thank" that post...until the last line.

I'm 82...and fuck the "red scare."

Capitalism of the type we have...SCARES ME MORE.

Donald, the abomination, Trump...SCARES ME MORE.

Healthcare should indeed be taken out of the Capitalistic realm...and moved to a right.

Sufficient food for each individual should be move there next.

An education for every person who wants it...should also.

And, of course, there are others.

The basic needs of a decent life should be met for everyone...then the greedy can fight to get as much of the plenty that will be left.

its unfettered capitalism that eats its self



the wealthy love it


so they make up lies to get idiots to vote against their own benefit

 

[Fentoine Lum]

its unfettered capitalism that eats its self



the wealthy love it


so they make up lies to get idiots to vote against their own benefit

Capitalism lurches from one crisis to the next, goes all the way back to the 1400's. And everytime it does nowadays, more societal wealth is redistributed to the aristocracy.

"You know the statistics. Income inequality in the United States has not been this pronounced in over a century. The top 10 percent has 50 percent of the country’s income, and the upper 1 percent has 20 percent of the country’s income. A quarter of American workers struggle on wages of less than $10 an hour, putting them below the poverty line, while the income of the average CEO of a major corporation is more than 300 times the pay of his or her average worker, a massive increase given that in the 1950s the average CEO made 20 times what his or her worker made. This income inequality is global. The richest 1 percent of the world’s population controls 40 percent of the world’s wealth. And it is getting worse.

What will the consequences of this inequality be economically and politically? How much worse will it get with the imposition of austerity programs and a new tax code that slashes rates for corporations, allowing companies to hoard money or buy back their own stock rather than invest in the economy? How will we endure as health care insurance premiums steadily rise and social and public welfare programs such as Medicaid, Pell Grants and food stamps are cut? And under the tax code revision signed by President Trump in December, rates will increase over the long term for the working class. Over the next decade, the revision will cost the nation roughly $1.5 trillion. Where will this end?

We live in a new feudalism. We have been stripped of political power. Workers are trapped in menial jobs, forced into crippling debt and paid stagnant or declining wages. Chronic poverty and exploitative working conditions in many parts of the world, and increasingly in the United States, replicate the hell endured by industrial workers at the end of the 19th century. The complete capture of ruling institutions by corporations and their oligarchic elites, including the two dominant political parties, the courts and the press, means there is no mechanism left by which we can reform the system or protect ourselves from mounting abuse. We will revolt or become 21st-century serfs, forced to live in misery and brutally oppressed by militarized police and the most sophisticated security and surveillance system in human history while the ruling oligarchs continue to wallow in unimagined wealth and opulence."

Becoming Serfs
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/becoming-serfs/

 

[evince]

well fettered capitalism works dude

all your hero countries are capitalist countries who have fettered their capitalism well

 

[Nordberg]

Capitalism, if not regulated, will end in terrible wealth gaps. That was predicted long ago and you can see how accurate that is. Our wealth gap is worse than the Gilded Age. The wealthy are owning Republican party and buying much of the Dems. Our right wing geniuses voted a "billionaire" into offiice believing he would fix that. How stupid is that? So more money trickling up, up and away.

The founders chartered corporations. If the corporation did acts that were against the public welfare, their charters could be revoked. They were absolutely not corporate lovers. The American Revolution was partly spurred on by the abuse of English law and corporations. The colonials were not allowed to have clothing manufacturers as an example. English taoilrs got laws passed to prohibit it.

 

[Heff]

There is a long standing Conservative Myth that we have to choose between socialism and capitalism. Some say socialism is like a cancerous disease that, once begun, grows and grows until it chokes capitalism to death and destroys the economy.

False and false.

Socialism is working very well in most industrialized nations. The USA is the only highly industrialized nation which does not have a socialist universal health care system.

We have had socialism in the USA for a long time now.

Even back when most Trump supporters would say 'America was great.' (the 1950's?)

We had social security and a minimum wage. Neither of those things is the result of capitalism.

The (socialism again) GI Bill saved millions of returning American vets from poverty. It allowed them to get an education, get a job, get a mortgage, get a home, and build wealth. (White Americans, anyway - blacks were redlined OUT of home ownership, the primary vehicle to wealth for most Americans.)

FDR: One of the greatest Presidents ever. He brought us through the big war, brought us socialism to save us from the ravages of Great Depression.

Socialism has lots of promises and benefits but socialism cannot be our only solution.

Capitalism is our primary wealth generator. Capitalism is a powerful engine of motivation and productivity.

How do we decide between the two?

That's a trick question.

We don't have to pick one.

We can have BOTH!

We already do.

The trick is to get the correct balance between the two. We just need the proper blend of capitalism and socialism. We can work jobs, pay into the system, and let the system take care of the needy. Everyone wins!

We need to be talking more and more about how socialism can work for us. We need to move beyond the limiting old Conservative Myths that are supporting the Class War and wealth extraction.

Corporations and the super-rich extract far more of our wealth than socialism. We need to face up to the facts here. The government doesn't want your money. The government uses the money it collects to do good, and always end up in the hole anyway. (because of the chintzy super-rich never want to pay enough taxes!) Corporations and the super-rich take your money and keep it for themselves. They take the government's money. They can't get enough. If you've got it, they want it. And they are very diabolical about getting what they want.

We need a socialist health care system. It is wrong for people to think of healing as a way to get rich. It is wrong for corporations to be making billions of dollars on the 'business' of providing health care. Health care in the USA should be a RIGHT. We can put a man on the moon; we can do this.

The capitalist model cannot work well for that because there is no way to have basic competition. Something happens and you're rushed off to the hospital, you don't spring up out of the gurney and say: "WAIT! I want to shop around and see which is the best deal in hospitals!" It's not like you're laying on the ground and waving off the first few EMT's because they charge too much. That's ridiculous. Who calls around to doctor offices for prices? "How much do you charge for treatment if I have a stroke?" No. That's ridiculous. Capitalism doesn't work for that.

We need Socialism in the USA.

That's not true. Socialism does not work, or otherwise leads to tyranny. Healthcare is not socialism, despite what conservatives and socialists say. Universal healthcare is the product of wealthy, free-market, liberal democracies.

 

[archives]

We need a mixed economy, works best in all nations, the difficulties become determining which degree of capitalism and socialism blend the best

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello Fentoine Lum,

Capitalism lurches from one crisis to the next, goes all the way back to the 1400's. And everytime it does nowadays, more societal wealth is redistributed to the aristocracy.

"You know the statistics. Income inequality in the United States has not been this pronounced in over a century. The top 10 percent has 50 percent of the country’s income, and the upper 1 percent has 20 percent of the country’s income. A quarter of American workers struggle on wages of less than $10 an hour, putting them below the poverty line, while the income of the average CEO of a major corporation is more than 300 times the pay of his or her average worker, a massive increase given that in the 1950s the average CEO made 20 times what his or her worker made. This income inequality is global. The richest 1 percent of the world’s population controls 40 percent of the world’s wealth. And it is getting worse.

What will the consequences of this inequality be economically and politically? How much worse will it get with the imposition of austerity programs and a new tax code that slashes rates for corporations, allowing companies to hoard money or buy back their own stock rather than invest in the economy? How will we endure as health care insurance premiums steadily rise and social and public welfare programs such as Medicaid, Pell Grants and food stamps are cut? And under the tax code revision signed by President Trump in December, rates will increase over the long term for the working class. Over the next decade, the revision will cost the nation roughly $1.5 trillion. Where will this end?

We live in a new feudalism. We have been stripped of political power. Workers are trapped in menial jobs, forced into crippling debt and paid stagnant or declining wages. Chronic poverty and exploitative working conditions in many parts of the world, and increasingly in the United States, replicate the hell endured by industrial workers at the end of the 19th century. The complete capture of ruling institutions by corporations and their oligarchic elites, including the two dominant political parties, the courts and the press, means there is no mechanism left by which we can reform the system or protect ourselves from mounting abuse. We will revolt or become 21st-century serfs, forced to live in misery and brutally oppressed by militarized police and the most sophisticated security and surveillance system in human history while the ruling oligarchs continue to wallow in unimagined wealth and opulence."

Becoming Serfs
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/becoming-serfs/

What a great article. And so true.

The real battle is the rich and powerful oligarchs against everybody else. But since they have us divided and conquered, they win the Class War. And they keep on winning. It's the war that never ends unless the people revolt. Wolff is right. It's just like it was before the French revolution. Capitalism is a double-edged sword. It is very powerful, but it can hurt you unless it is used very carefully. Capitalism will self-destruct without proper government regulation. It already happened in the Great Depression. And again in the Great Recession. And every time that happens more people get hurt. If we just had capitalism properly regulated by a strong government, and mixed with the proper amount of socialism, we could have a healthy and mutually prosperous economy for everyone.

 

[crowonapost]

its unfettered capitalism that eats its self



the wealthy love it


so they make up lies to get idiots to vote against their own benefit

-in bold-
I really struggle with that phrase. My wife says it all the time. I... know where it comes from.
I don't like the phrase. It's monopoly capitalism, not unfettered, that's just avoidance. Get old school and call it what it is.,monopoly. It may be known to you as a hasboro game but in reality it was and is a descriptor for an economic realty.

 

[PoliTalker]

Hello and welcome to the discussion crowonapost,

-in bold-
I really struggle with that phrase. [ unfettered capitalism ] My wife says it all the time. I... know where it comes from.
I don't like the phrase. It's monopoly capitalism, not unfettered, that's just avoidance. Get old school and call it what it is.,monopoly. It may be known to you as a hasboro game but in reality it was and is a descriptor for an economic realty.

That is the ideal all capitalists strive for. They want complete control over one or more markets for whatever product they sell. That's the holy grail. Like the big pharma greed where they get complete control over a single needed product and then raise the price 900%. Hey. If you don't like it, you don't have to pay. You do have another option. You can pay or you can die. They love it. That's their goal. To have you in such a position. Capitalism at it's most lucrative is death.

 

[ThatOwlWoman]

-in bold-
I really struggle with that phrase. My wife says it all the time. I... know where it comes from.
I don't like the phrase. It's monopoly capitalism, not unfettered, that's just avoidance. Get old school and call it what it is.,monopoly. It may be known to you as a hasboro game but in reality it was and is a descriptor for an economic realty.

"Monopoly" is a good word too. We don't seem to care much about mega-mergers and monopolies any more.

That being said, by "unfettered" we mean that capitalism has no rules to follow. No minimum wage. No restrictions on environmental damage caused in the course of doing business. No worker safety regulations. No unfair hiring practices laws. In other words, those who wish capitalism in the U.S. to remain unfettered want us to be like developing nations with none of these regulations that protect life, property, and the human beings employed in industry. That's why Dumpty is doing everything he can via EO to cut the fetters and go back to the bad old days where dumping coal ash into a river was how it was done, belching toxins into the air was no BFD, etc.

 

[evince]

-in bold-
I really struggle with that phrase. My wife says it all the time. I... know where it comes from.
I don't like the phrase. It's monopoly capitalism, not unfettered, that's just avoidance. Get old school and call it what it is.,monopoly. It may be known to you as a hasboro game but in reality it was and is a descriptor for an economic realty.

regulations


that is the fettering



IT works to tame capitalism from eating its self and giving us kings and queens for government


look it up

read about it in some economic writings

then thank your wife for being correct


without capitalism you cant have real freedom

 

[crowonapost]

regulations


that is the fettering



IT works to tame capitalism from eating its self and giving us kings and queens for government


look it up

read about it in some economic writings

then thank your wife for being correct


without capitalism you cant have real freedom

Thanks for your condescending attitude. I am well aware of all aspects of it.

Try reading the founding concept of capitalism, who brought up the concept, it's limits and one of the tenants he prescribed to insure it's ability to work well then we can have a snide little condescending talk with one another.

M'kay.

 

[crowonapost]

Hello and welcome to the discussion crowonapost,



That is the ideal all capitalists strive for. They want complete control over one or more markets for whatever product they sell. That's the holy grail. Like the big pharma greed where they get complete control over a single needed product and then raise the price 900%. Hey. If you don't like it, you don't have to pay. You do have another option. You can pay or you can die. They love it. That's their goal. To have you in such a position. Capitalism at it's most lucrative is death.

I know. I understand the nature of Monopoly Capitalism which is different from competitive free market capitalism. There was a founding concept that was posited with the creation of the industrial capitalist system and that was representative democracies.

 

[crowonapost]

"Monopoly" is a good word too. We don't seem to care much about mega-mergers and monopolies any more.

That being said, by "unfettered" we mean that capitalism has no rules to follow. No minimum wage. No restrictions on environmental damage caused in the course of doing business. No worker safety regulations. No unfair hiring practices laws. In other words, those who wish capitalism in the U.S. to remain unfettered want us to be like developing nations with none of these regulations that protect life, property, and the human beings employed in industry. That's why Dumpty is doing everything he can via EO to cut the fetters and go back to the bad old days where dumping coal ash into a river was how it was done, belching toxins into the air was no BFD, etc.

Yeah I get it. It used to be called the boogy word, 'REGULATION'
Que in scary music. lol

What has been lost in our culture is understanding that Monopolies are checked by democratically elected governments that by the will of the population enact regulations to limit the worst tendencies of capitalisms natural 'unfettered' tendencies.

 

[Minister of Truth]

There is a long standing Conservative Myth that we have to choose between socialism and capitalism. Some say socialism is like a cancerous disease that, once begun, grows and grows until it chokes capitalism to death and destroys the economy.

False and false.

Socialism is working very well in most industrialized nations. The USA is the only highly industrialized nation which does not have a socialist universal health care system.

We have had socialism in the USA for a long time now.

Even back when most Trump supporters would say 'America was great.' (the 1950's?)

We had social security and a minimum wage. Neither of those things is the result of capitalism.

The (socialism again) GI Bill saved millions of returning American vets from poverty. It allowed them to get an education, get a job, get a mortgage, get a home, and build wealth. (White Americans, anyway - blacks were redlined OUT of home ownership, the primary vehicle to wealth for most Americans.)

FDR: One of the greatest Presidents ever. He brought us through the big war, brought us socialism to save us from the ravages of Great Depression.

Socialism has lots of promises and benefits but socialism cannot be our only solution.

Capitalism is our primary wealth generator. Capitalism is a powerful engine of motivation and productivity.

How do we decide between the two?

That's a trick question.

We don't have to pick one.

We can have BOTH!

We already do.

The trick is to get the correct balance between the two. We just need the proper blend of capitalism and socialism. We can work jobs, pay into the system, and let the system take care of the needy. Everyone wins!

We need to be talking more and more about how socialism can work for us. We need to move beyond the limiting old Conservative Myths that are supporting the Class War and wealth extraction.

Corporations and the super-rich extract far more of our wealth than socialism. We need to face up to the facts here. The government doesn't want your money. The government uses the money it collects to do good, and always end up in the hole anyway. (because of the chintzy super-rich never want to pay enough taxes!) Corporations and the super-rich take your money and keep it for themselves. They take the government's money. They can't get enough. If you've got it, they want it. And they are very diabolical about getting what they want.

We need a socialist health care system. It is wrong for people to think of healing as a way to get rich. It is wrong for corporations to be making billions of dollars on the 'business' of providing health care. Health care in the USA should be a RIGHT. We can put a man on the moon; we can do this.

The capitalist model cannot work well for that because there is no way to have basic competition. Something happens and you're rushed off to the hospital, you don't spring up out of the gurney and say: "WAIT! I want to shop around and see which is the best deal in hospitals!" It's not like you're laying on the ground and waving off the first few EMT's because they charge too much. That's ridiculous. Who calls around to doctor offices for prices? "How much do you charge for treatment if I have a stroke?" No. That's ridiculous. Capitalism doesn't work for that.

We need Socialism in the USA.

You are not talking about socialism; you are talking about welfare statism and progressivism. Obviously, capitalism and socialism cannot co-exist at the same time.