we need to re-think the Inviolability of religious and philosophical institutions

[Battleborne]

LMAO..............

No. You live a fantasy world. Most people consider jews an ethnic group. Period. Including jews. Being a jew IMPLIES being also of the religion of judaism, whether or not you feel that is accurate.

This is getting so very funny...hey asshat ya forgot to ask BAC if being a 'Black Panther' makes one ethnically African American?

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_identity[/ame]

Jewish identity can be cultural.

There are religious and cultural components to Jewish identity, just as there are religious and cultural components of Christian identity or Muslim identity. However, Jewish identity also has a strong ethnic component to it, absent (especially in the United States) in most of the Christian identity.

Jewish identity can be separated into three separate, independent parts:

religious Judaism (those who follow the tenets of the Jewish religion)
ethnic Judaism (those of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi or other Jewish ancestry)
cultural Judaism (those who celebrate Jewish holidays and were "raised in a Jewish home")


Black Panther is a religion.

 

[Battleborne]

OH my...............

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_identity

Jewish identity can be cultural.

There are religious and cultural components to Jewish identity, just as there are religious and cultural components of Christian identity or Muslim identity. However, Jewish identity also has a strong ethnic component to it, absent (especially in the United States) in most of the Christian identity.

Jewish identity can be separated into three separate, independent parts:

religious Judaism (those who follow the tenets of the Jewish religion)
ethnic Judaism (those of Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Mizrahi or other Jewish ancestry)
cultural Judaism (those who celebrate Jewish holidays and were "raised in a Jewish home")


Black Panther is a religion/political extremist party.

Gotcha so BAC is not black afterall...just a religious zealot from the prison system...a convert pretending to be African American for shock value!

 

[uscitizen]

???

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

???

No you can't convert to black panther, USC.

 

[Good Luck]

taxing churches that did not meet the minimum charitable works percentage would remove the externalization of the costs of religion off the backs of the rest of us.

What costs? What exactly does religion cost YOU as a taxpayer.

Churches do not pay taxes, but neither do they rely on tax funded programs. Quite the opposite, they often provide services above and beyond what tax funded programs do.

Those churches that pull in more that needed for operating expenses invariably return the excess back to their communities in a number of ways, usually having to do with helping the needy.

Most homeless shelters in the U.S. are operated and funded by religious organizations.

Your "poor me, I am supporting religion against my will" is a load of crap.

 

[TBT]

LOL

What costs? What exactly does religion cost YOU as a taxpayer.

Churches do not pay taxes, but neither do they rely on tax funded programs. Quite the opposite, they often provide services above and beyond what tax funded programs do.

Those churches that pull in more that needed for operating expenses invariably return the excess back to their communities in a number of ways, usually having to do with helping the needy.

Most homeless shelters in the U.S. are operated and funded by religious organizations.

Your "poor me, I am supporting religion against my will" is a load of crap.

after reading several of us citizens posts i must admitt i think the poor soul has been stuck in Ky red clay,way to long!He needs to get out more often.

 

[Good Luck]

Most Americans are law-abiding, but that does not challenge the truth that we need the police.

I stated clearly that there needs to be a redefinement of the relationship between religions and secular law enforcement.

I'd also disagree with you on your characterization of the church and its many of its leaders. Quite a few live above the means of their flock and above lower income status.

Define "quite a few". Most wide spread organized religions (Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Baptist, etc.) have a specific pay scale for their clergy that is definitely not above that of the means of their flock. In fact most widespread organized churches the clergy are required to tke a vow of poverty, even if they were rich before they became clergy.

That covers about 80% of church leadership in the U.S. Smaller non-denominational churches quite often mirror the practices of the larger, so they to are limited in their income according to a vow of poverty.

The exceptions may number in the hundreds or even thousands. But that is out of millions. The percentage of religious leadership that use religion as a means to wealth is very small.

What religion is being persecuted today?

Wicans maybe?

There is no religious persecution in America today, but our society is frought with religious abuses that adversely impact the lives of many, including children.

I did not say there was persecution today. You really need to try to read better. I said we need to be careful how we address the situation of secualr law intersecting with religion because if we allow too wide an opening, someone would take advantage of it and persecute a religion they did not like.

What good will taxing religious institutions do, some of which exist to nake money? It will benefit the government in performing the function of government, which includes helping needy Americans which it does far better than the church.

It has always been interesting and telling how many of the so-called religious get all twisted about taxes and money.

The cloak of invisibility has to be removed from religious institutions.

nd it is very telling of you, that you would agree with me in one thread on the inefficiencies and waste of government programs for the needy, then in this thread make the LUDICROUS claim that government does it better than churches. Government may do MORE of it by simply having a large purse to draw from, but they most certainly do not do it better.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

God is a dick.

 

[blackascoal]

No. You live a fantasy world. Most people consider jews an ethnic group. Period. Including jews. Being a jew IMPLIES being also of the religion of judaism, whether or not you feel that is accurate.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything you don't want to hear my brother. If you think there is a race called Jews, do let facts, history, or geneaology get in your way.

Again, I have no anger or resentment whatsoever against jewish people. I think the Israeli people are victims of their own government much as Americans are.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

I'm not trying to convince you of anything you don't want to hear my brother. If you think there is a race called Jews, do let facts, history, or geneaology get in your way.

Part of their law states that one IS JEWISH if one's mother is. It's a variant of matrilineal tribalism which is found in other tribal affiliations as well.

Don't let that stark reality destroy your oversimplified zionist propaganda.

Again, I have no anger or resentment whatsoever against jewish people. I think the Israeli people are victims of their own government much as Americans are.

I have no anger either. Welcome to the calm club.

 

[blackascoal]

I stated clearly that there needs to be a redefinement of the relationship between religions and secular law enforcement.

The point was that religions need oversight regardless of the "just a few" claim.

Define "quite a few". Most wide spread organized religions (Catholic, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Baptist, etc.) have a specific pay scale for their clergy that is definitely not above that of the means of their flock. In fact most widespread organized churches the clergy are required to tke a vow of poverty, even if they were rich before they became clergy.

That covers about 80% of church leadership in the U.S. Smaller non-denominational churches quite often mirror the practices of the larger, so they to are limited in their income according to a vow of poverty.

The exceptions may number in the hundreds or even thousands. But that is out of millions. The percentage of religious leadership that use religion as a means to wealth is very small.

Your argument seems to be that because there are a few criminals, we shouldn't have police. Surely you don't need me to post glaring examples of religious leaders using their influence for personal and near demonic gain.

Many of their victims have been children ..and just because you claim there are relatively few in comparison to the whole is hardly an argument against the need to pay closer attention to religious organizations and lift the special relationship they have with government .. in my opinion.

I did not say there was persecution today. You really need to try to read better. I said we need to be careful how we address the situation of secualr law intersecting with religion because if we allow too wide an opening, someone would take advantage of it and persecute a religion they did not like.

Religious persecution is not an argument at all, neither is any possibility that it will occur. Most Americans have even wised up to the roots of "Islamophobia."

Secular law has the right and responsibility to protect Americans and no more needs to tiptoe around that responsibility than it should with anyother organization. That tiptoeing and "need to be vareful" is exactly what has covered up so many abuses in the past.

nd it is very telling of you, that you would agree with me in one thread on the inefficiencies and waste of government programs for the needy, then in this thread make the LUDICROUS claim that government does it better than churches. Government may do MORE of it by simply having a large purse to draw from, but they most certainly do not do it better.

Perhaps you need to read better my brother. I've stated here and then that government does a better job of addressing the needs of poverty than churches and religious organizations do. My argument with government is that they can do a better job of it. Your claim that it's "ludacrous" is itself, telling.

I asked you if you had any idea how much churches take to the bank weekly? They have a HUGE purse to draw from.

I think you are a great poster by the way.

 

[Good Luck]

The point was that religions need oversight regardless of the "just a few" claim.

Your argument seems to be that because there are a few criminals, we shouldn't have police. Surely you don't need me to post glaring examples of religious leaders using their influence for personal and near demonic gain.

Many of their victims have been children ..and just because you claim there are relatively few in comparison to the whole is hardly an argument against the need to pay closer attention to religious organizations and lift the special relationship they have with government .. in my opinion.

No, my statement about very few had to do with removing tax exemptions due to those charismatic churches where the leaders make themselves rich off of church offerings. While despicable, that is not a crime. No police needed. In the case of real crime, I maintain my original statement: we need to redefine the relationship between secular law and religion, but need to do so carefully.

Religious persecution is not an argument at all, neither is any possibility that it will occur. Most Americans have even wised up to the roots of "Islamophobia."

Secular law has the right and responsibility to protect Americans and no more needs to tiptoe around that responsibility than it should with anyother organization. That tiptoeing and "need to be vareful" is exactly what has covered up so many abuses in the past.

What does islamophobia have to do with it. it is fact that despite the first amendment there have been religions which have been persecuted. The very reason for the first amendment is to make sure that government never persecutes religion as well as making sure government never established a state religion. To weaken that protection would not be wise.

Perhaps you need to read better my brother. I've stated here and then that government does a better job of addressing the needs of poverty than churches and religious organizations do. My argument with government is that they can do a better job of it. Your claim that it's "ludacrous" is itself, telling.

I asked you if you had any idea how much churches take to the bank weekly? They have a HUGE purse to draw from.

You need to do a little research on this one. Church programs are far more efficient. First, the church infrastructure which is already paid for whether they run an assistance program or not, and volunteers take the place of the invariably bloated and expensive bureaucracy in government programs.

Church programs, since they a already heavily involved in the community, are vastly more aware of where assistance is needed and what type is needed as compared to government one-size-fits-all programs with their don't-meet-our-numbers-you'll-fall-through-the-cracks approach. In fact, church programs are one of the agencies I agreed exist in the other thread that know who is truly poor, and who is merely misspending their income.

All churches combined in the U.S. do not have the resources of the U.S. and state government tax bases. It is admittedly a large number that churches bank every week, but not as big as Uncle Sam. And let's keep in mind that most denominational churches in the U.S., which comprise a majority of total churches, are involved in world-wide assistance programs as well as promoting their religion world wide. When removing monies spent on foreign missionaries and foreign aid programs, the comparison of church dollars available for assistance and government dollars earmarked for assistance is hugely disparate.

But due to their much higher efficiency, they manage to reach more people per dollar spent on assistance. Some may limit their assistance to church members, but not all, by far, have that limitation. As stated before, it is almost invariable that a community homeless shelter will be operated by a church organization. Ditto meal kitchens. There are two church run youth programs or centers for every private secular youth program, and 3 private (including church) run youth programs and youth centers for every government operated youth program or center.

I think you are a great poster by the way.

Thanks

 

[Don Quixote]

I have to disagree to an extent. Many people are spiritual because of their religion. The religion itself brought these people to the point of their spirituality. I happen to believe there is a pattern in the Bible for religion. It teaches care for the poor as part of the pattern. That is part of what we are to be about as religious organizations.

lr

the religious organization that i am a minister of requires that its ministers not receive compensation from donations and be gainfully employed outside of the religion

while i charge $50 dollars for performing weddings, i do not charge for funerals

also, i do not charge for teaching or healings

spirituality maybe learned, but mostly comes from within

 

[Don Quixote]

Yet his belief that he was the savior makes him clearly at odds with jewish teachings.

ahz

not really, the myth says that he set out to reform judiasm as its priests had preempted the religion for their means, sort of like the catholic church before and after the reformation

his followers claimed that he was the messiah, but the reality is the messiah is not a person but a teaching...i.e., god is love, a novel concept for the times

 

[Don Quixote]

BAC, are there atheist jews? How does that work?

judiasm is determined by the child's mother, if she is jewish, then her children are jewish - this came about as the result of the diaspora where jewish men were not allowed to marry jewish women

damn, that religious training comes out at the oddest times...

 

[Don Quixote]

Spirtuality is a verb my brother. It is that which moves you to becoming a better you. It is the emotion and passion that drives the best of you. It doesn't come with pre-described dictates and stories like religion. It doesn't require a leader, although the words, beliefs, and life of another could indeed open an intellectual awakening in ones consciousness that leads to spiritual emotion.

bac

1. The quality or state of being spiritual; spiritual character; = SPIRITUALITY 3. Obs.
1377 LANGL. P. Pl. B. v. 148

us

ei speken of spiritualte

at eyther despiseth other, Til

ei be bothe beggers and by my spiritualte libben. a1420 Aunters of Arth. xx, These ar the gracius giftus of the Holi Gost, That enspires iche sprete... Off this spirituallte speke we no more. 1421 26 Pol. Poems xviii. 8 In brennyng contemplacion,

e hi

est lyf of spiritualte. ?a1500 Chester Pl. IX. 166 In tokening of thy dignitie and that office of Spiritualty, receave..deuoutly myne offring.

b. = HOLINESS n. 2. Obs.

1
1613-8 DANIEL Coll. Hist. Eng. Wks. V. 168 The King of France whom he had excommunicated.., shortly after so wrought, as his Spiritualty was surprized at Anagne.
2.

a. = SPIRITUALITY 2. Obs.
c1380 WYCLIF Wks. (1880) 276 So

at alle clerkis lyue clenly on spiritualte, as crist & his apostlis deden. 1387 TREVISA Higden (Rolls) VII. 335 Kyng William..rulede bo

e temperalte and spiritualte [L. secularia et ecclesiastica] at his owne wille. c1400 MANDEVILLE (Roxb.) iii. 10 He es

are lorde bathe of temperaltee and of spiritualtee. 1700 [see TEMPORALTY 1]. 1709 STRYPE Ann. Ref. I. xxv. 245 Keeper of the spiritualty of the city and diocese of Bristol.
b. pl. = SPIRITUALITY 2b. Now Hist.
c1380 WYCLIF Wks. (1830) 369 Si

ai han now

e more part of

e temporal lordeschips, and wi

at

e spiritualtees and

e greete mouable tresouris of

e rewme. 1531-2 Act 23 Hen. VIII, c. 20 §2 Bysshopes..shall..entyerly have and enjoye all the spiritualties and temporalties..in..beneficiall maner. 1570 Act 13 Eliz. c. 12 §1 The Bysshop or Gardian of the Spyritualties of some one Diocesse where he hath..Ecclesiastical Lyving. 1607 COWELL Interpr. s.v. Gardeyn, The guardeyn of the spiritualties, may be either Guardeyn in lawe,..or guardian by delegation. 1726 AYLIFFE Parergon 125 Of Common Right, the Dean and Chapter are Guardians of the Spiritualties, during the Vacancy of a Bishoprick. 1763 BURN Eccles. Law (1767) I. 202 Spiritualties of bishopricks in the time of vacation. 1835 TOMLINS Law Dict. s.v. Guardian. 1912 Eng. Hist. Rev. Oct. 768 A complete list of the..temporalties and spiritualties belonging to a parish church.
3. The body of spiritual or ecclesiastical persons; the spiritual estate of the realm; the clergy; = SPIRITUALITY 1.
c1400 Destr. Troy 3100 Ho tentit not in Tempull to no tall prayers,..Ne speche of no spiritualtie, with speciall ne other. c1450 LOVELICH Grail xlviii. 218 Axeth hem..what maner of men that they welen be, Owther wedded men, owther speritwalte. 1482 CAXTON Polychronicon VIII. xi. 405 As for the temporalytees beynge in the handes of the spirituelte. 1529 MORE Dyaloge III. Wks. 225/1 So dare I boldly say that the spiritualtie of Englande..is in learning and honest liuing well able to matche..the spiritualtie of anye nacion christen. 1579 FENTON Guicciard. III. (1599) 143 The diuision being no lesse amongst the spiritualtie then the layetie. 1641 MILTON Ch. Discip. II. 86 The boistrous and contradictional hand of a temporall, earthly and corporeal Spiritualty. 1699 BURNET 39 Art. xxxvii. 384 The Synods..were for the greatest part mixed Assemblies in which the Temporalty and the Spiritualty sate together. 1849 W. FITZGERALD tr. Whitaker's Disput. 248 He says all, not merely the learned, or the bishops, or the spiritualty. 1856 FROUDE Hist. Eng. (1858) I. iii. 248 The spiritualty defended themselves by prescription and usage. 1878 STUBBS Const. Hist. III. xix. 290 We may regard the spiritualty of England, the clergy or clerical estate, as a body completely organised.

b. A body or set of ecclesiastics or clergy. Obs.
1513 Life Hen. V (1911) 184 And all the saide spiritualtie, singinge the offices accustomed in like case, conueyed the saide corps [etc.]. 1545 JOYE Exp. Dan. V. I v, Then the kynge cried commanding his spiritualtye, his wyse men, enchaunters,..to be brought unto him. 1624 BEDELL Lett. iii. 68 We learne that no earthly power, no Magistrate is a spirituall man, vnlesse hee bee one of the Popes spiritualtie. 1653 MILTON Hirelings Pref., A spiritualtie of men devoted to their temporal gain.

4. pl. Ecclesiastical ground or precincts. Obs.
1470-85 MALORY Arthur XVII. xxiii. 724 Bors lete bery hym by his syster and by Galahad in the spyrytueltees.

 

[Good Luck]

Another argument against removing tax exempt status from churches relates to the structure and reason for the 501 tax exempt system. Many non-profit organizations operate under 501 class exemptions, meaning they do not pay taxes under most circumstances.

The reason for allowing 501 classifications is in recognizing that certain types of organizations provide a benefit to the public, and in doing so, it is more beneficial to society to allow them maximum operating budget than would be derived from taxing their income and properties.

Whether one agrees in the validity of religion or not, churches are public benefit organizations. As such, it is more beneficial to society as a whole to allow churches maximum operating budget by giving them tax exempt status.


And another argument:
The membership and supporters of a church are aware of what their donations are used for. They obviously approve of where their money is going, or they would not be donating it.

It is arrogance in the extreme to then tell the churches, and the people who donate to them, that what the money is used for is not acceptable to you, and therefore is if the church does not do what YOU believe should be done with the donations they receive, then you think you should have the power to take the money away from them and do what you want with it anyway.

It's a load of crap, really.

 

[Truck Fump / h1b]

ahz

not really, the myth says that he set out to reform judiasm as its priests had preempted the religion for their means, sort of like the catholic church before and after the reformation

his followers claimed that he was the messiah, but the reality is the messiah is not a person but a teaching...i.e., god is love, a novel concept for the times

In judaism the Messiah is an actual person. Are you talking about judaism?

 

[blackascoal]

Part of their law states that one IS JEWISH if one's mother is. It's a variant of matrilineal tribalism which is found in other tribal affiliations as well.

Don't let that stark reality destroy your oversimplified zionist propaganda.

I have no anger either. Welcome to the calm club.

Again, it doesn't matter what they call themselves or how they attempt to redefine genealogy. It has no basis in fact. They also call themselves "chosen people", but there are no chosen people .. and if "God" were to choose a people, wouldn't that be his/her/its FIRST people .. whose DNA courses through the veins of ALL humans?

They also pretend they are the only semetic people .. which is also scientifically incorrect. Arabs are as semetic as they are .. as are all people who speak an afro-asiatic language.

Odd hearing you chastize me about "oversimplified zionist propaganda" given your oversimplified angst about Noahides.