Into the Night
Verified User
A nonsense phrase. I like your idea of a musical instrument called a 'zion' though!
What is a Christian Zionist?
- Thread starter IBDaMann
- Start date
Most of Exodus is undoubtedly folklore and mythology.
On the other hand, I don't think the lack of archeology is that strong of an argument. Exodus places the ancient Israelites in the Delta region of Egypt. The Delta is notoriously difficult to do any archeology in because the water table is near the land surface, and soil conditions are wet. Any kind of excavation is extremely problematic.
Egyptians had a different conception of history than we do. They only recorded victories and triumphs. They wouldn't have written about anything embarrassing, and they wouldn't have wasted time and resources writing about slaves.
What is clear from Exodus is that the Israelites had very specific knowledge of Egyptian geography and Egyptian cultural practices; knowledge they probably shouldn't have had if the Torah was just edited and compiled while they were in in Babylonia during the exile.
Exodus correctly identifies a number of Egyptian towns.
Exodus correctly mentions that Egyptians mixed straw with mud to make bricks, a practice not used in Canaan.
The name Moses itself is a purely Egyptian name, it's not a name that would have originated with Semitic people of Canaan and the Levant.
I agree. As we learned from Schliemann finding Troy, even myths many times have a kernel, or more than just a kernel, of truth. Something happened to someone, but it is hard to say what exactly happened to who.
Jews have been in the Israel area for at least 3,000 years, and speak a language that has been there for at least 4,000 years. A reasonable guess would be they have been there for 5,000 years, based on the archeology fitting together with the language, but that goes way back into pre-history, so is impossible to tell.
I agree the lack of archeology proves little. Jericho proper was obviously not occupied at the time. Jericho was nearly continuously populated for almost 10,000 years, but just happened to not be populated during the time of the Exodus.
This could be explained by Jericho being moved a tiny bit over into a place not dug by archeologists. If the dig misses by a few feet, it completely misses the target.
But, the actual archeological evidence is a little more convincing. Before the time of the Exodus, The Levant was a few Egyptian outposts surrounded by a Canaanite Civilization. After the time of the Exodus, The Levant lost the Egyptian outposts, but the surrounding Canaanite Civilization had not changed. If there had been a massive influx of foreign people with foreign culture and foreign technology, we would see that in the archeology.
For instance, the archeological record of change between European American and Native American cultures is stark. This is more a normal progression.
All good points. We may never know for sure.
Here is another complexity. Was there ever a United Monarchy of Israel? If not, then Moses would be the founder of Israel, but not Judah. Later, when the Kingdom of Israel was destroyed, the educated people of Israel may have brought their writing to the Kingdom of Judah. But that would not make Moses the founder of Judah anymore than Washington is the founder of Canada.
The biblical story about 640,000 Israelite men plus all their wives and families leaving Egypt is obviously fantastical hyperbole.
It might have only been a few hundred Israelites, if there was an Exodus.
The fact that Exodus seems to include very particular details about Egyptian geography and cultural practice is to me fairly good circumstantial evidence that Israelites had been in Egypt. Exodus, even with all it's hyperbole and mythology, does seem to me to be based on an old oral tradition that contained a kernel of historical truth.
At the time of the Exodus, purportedly during Egyptian Dynasty XIX, the word Israel seemed to refer to a people, not to a nation or geographic entity. In that sense, I always thought Moses was the leader of the 12 tribes, even if two of those tribes later founded the Kingdom of Judah and the other ten founded the Kingdom of Israel.
But you may know more about it than me.
moon
Satire for Sanity
Desperate, prosemitic horseshit. ^
The notion of ' undiscoverable proof ' of Jews being in Egypt is really quite funny.
Still- I'm not wasting time debunking your Zionist fable-spinning.
Enjoy, dumbass- but not in Palestine.
Haw, haw.....................................haw.
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^^ Only hyper-skeptics with an agenda demand proof.
We can't prove anything, except maybe in mathematics, and even that may be debatable.
I didn't say anything about proof. Particularly concerning events in the archaic Bronze Age.
I stated there was some very circumstantial evidence that Israelites had been in Egypt during Dynasty XIX.
moon
Satire for Sanity
Horseshit ^
' This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people – and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story – now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people’s emergence are radically different from what that story tells. '
noahkennedy.net
' This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people – and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story – now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people’s emergence are radically different from what that story tells. '
Ze’ev Herzog and the historicity of the Bible - Noah Kennedy
Explore Noah Kennedy's discussion with Dr. Ze'ev Herzog on the historicity of biblical stories. Gain insights from a distinguished Israeli archaeologist
noahkennedy.net
ZenMode
Well-known member
The made-up Bible stories aren't relevant to the fact that Jews are indigenous to that part of the middle east.Horseshit ^
' This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people – and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story – now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people’s emergence are radically different from what that story tells. '
Ze’ev Herzog and the historicity of the Bible - Noah Kennedy
Explore Noah Kennedy's discussion with Dr. Ze'ev Herzog on the historicity of biblical stories. Gain insights from a distinguished Israeli archaeologist
moon
Satire for Sanity
Not entirely correct. SOME Jews were indigenous to Palestine as some point but left- and came back later. These Jews were those recorded by the British under the British Mandate. They are Semitic people and indigenous to Palestine. The European 'Jews ' who concocted Zionism and invaded Palestine post-1947 are not.
THEIR claim to Palestine is a mendacious nonsense.
ZenMode
Well-known member
Not entirely correct. SOME Jews were indigenous to Palestine as some point but left- and came back later. These Jews were those recorded by the British under the British Mandate. They are Semitic people and indigenous to Palestine. The European 'Jews ' who concocted Zionism and invaded Palestine post-1947 are not.
THEIR claim to Palestine is a mendacious nonsense.
your source...
moon
Satire for Sanity
Don't be childish. The background of each one of those Zionist assholes is public knowledge.
Don't you know what an indigenous Semite looks like ?
Yes, that would also explain the archeology of a single culture. Most of the people in Israel were the old people from before the Exodus.
I used to be partial to that theory, but I have been looking at the evidence of Egyptian outposts in Israel, and think that the Exodus was actually Israelites driving out the Egyptians. We may never know for sure, and probably more historians agree with you than me.
There is some historical evidence that the number of tribes was variable, and not constant. Maybe Moses was the leader of one tribe, and his story spread from there.
David also seemed to have a smaller group of people. Saul had a huge bureaucracy, and then suddenly David has a group of people who are his relatives. Almost everyone in his government is a cousin of his. The theory I lean towards is that Saul was king of Israel, a prosperous kingdom with a political capital in Samaria, and a religious capital at Mount Gerizim. David was a more minor king based around Jerusalem. When the Kingdom of Israel collapsed, the educated refugees integrated the two kings into the same story.
You know a lot for an amateur, and make no mistake about it, we are both amateurs here.
Eli Cohen was born in Israel, to parents born in Israel. The last name Cohen has been used for priests in Israel for over 3,000 years. DNA tests are completely legal in Israel.
moon
Satire for Sanity
moon
Satire for Sanity
There was no Tel Aviv in Palestine. Your Cohen appears to have been born in occupied territory. The city was named Jaffa before the Zionist invaded it. Your claim for Cohen's Semitic roots have faltered. Where is your information on Cohen's parentage ?
Jews have clearly been in the area for at least 3,000 years, and probably 5,000 years. They have been the majority for 80 years. They are there, with roots, and it is something we all have to admit.
moon
Satire for Sanity
Prosemitic wishful thinking from a genocidal asshole. ^
The British still held the Mandate for Palestine 80 years ago- and Jews were a small minority. Their numbers are recorded.
Also your claim foe ' Jewish cavemen' is utterly ridiculous- as are you. Fuck off.
All that guy claims is that the biblical history of the Hebrews is embellished, not that it's a complete fabrication. Every educated person has known that for decades.Horseshit ^
' This is what archaeologists have learned from their excavations in the Land of Israel: the Israelites were never in Egypt, did not wander in the desert, did not conquer the land in a military campaign and did not pass it on to the 12 tribes of Israel. Perhaps even harder to swallow is the fact that the united monarchy of David and Solomon, which is described by the Bible as a regional power, was at most a small tribal kingdom. And it will come as an unpleasant shock to many that the God of Israel, Jehovah, had a female consort and that the early Israelite religion adopted monotheism only in the waning period of the monarchy and not at Mount Sinai. Most of those who are engaged in scientific work in the interlocking spheres of the Bible, archaeology and the history of the Jewish people – and who once went into the field looking for proof to corroborate the Bible story – now agree that the historic events relating to the stages of the Jewish people’s emergence are radically different from what that story tells. '
Ze’ev Herzog and the historicity of the Bible - Noah Kennedy
Explore Noah Kennedy's discussion with Dr. Ze'ev Herzog on the historicity of biblical stories. Gain insights from a distinguished Israeli archaeologist
The existence of Israelites, Israel, and Judah are known from inscriptions and records of the Assyrians, Egyptians, Neo-Babylonians. The historical fact of Israelites living in the Mediterranean Levant is not a fabrication by 20th century Zionists.
moon
Satire for Sanity
For ' embellished ' read ' fundamentally fabricated ' . ^ The Old Testament is mendacious tripe.
Of course there were Palestinian tribes that adopted ethnic religions, Jews being one of them.
' Exodus ' is a nonsense, of course- as is ' Passover ' and the bull-rush 'Moses '. All bollocks.
Jews were a recorded sector of the Palestinian population under the British Mandate. A minority- but Palestinian people.
The European Zionist assholes that you support are not them. They are foreign intruders. Genocidal intruders as it turns out.
They 'll be dealt with in due course- or the democratic rule of law will fail. Then we'll be back in the realms of Zyklon-B
Palestine, as we know, is recorded in Greek antiquity. Of ' Israel ' ? Not a trace.
Of course there were Palestinian tribes that adopted ethnic religions, Jews being one of them.
' Exodus ' is a nonsense, of course- as is ' Passover ' and the bull-rush 'Moses '. All bollocks.
Jews were a recorded sector of the Palestinian population under the British Mandate. A minority- but Palestinian people.
The European Zionist assholes that you support are not them. They are foreign intruders. Genocidal intruders as it turns out.
They 'll be dealt with in due course- or the democratic rule of law will fail. Then we'll be back in the realms of Zyklon-B
Palestine, as we know, is recorded in Greek antiquity. Of ' Israel ' ? Not a trace.