A little history for those wanting to 'restore Palestine'.

[domer76]

There has never been a State called Palestine.
After 1946, as a result of 22 years of hatred, fighting, battles, clash of religions, riots and lots of shouting, the British empire turned her Palestine problem over to the UN. The UN voted to divide up the LAND. The Jews got their 14.3% of the LAND, and created a Jewish and democratic STATE-called Israel.
the Arabs missed their chance to get an independent STATE; went to war, lost and so started a 70 plus years ‘state of hysteria, hate, new facts, a special narrative and a missed chance.

Simplistic and incorrect. Where did you get 14.8%?

It was May 1948 when the war began, but the Jews had already begun the systematic demolition and destruction of Palestinian villages in 1947.

No matter how you shake it out, this is ethnic cleansing that has morphed into genocide.

 

[QuaseMarco]

Look it up, cocksucker.

You're a lowlife who has to resort to foul language when challenged.

 

[martin]

So your 'main reason' is that Palestinians are drawing a line of 'All or None' when it comes to any land offer?

I do not agree with your position but if it is accurate then i say the Palestinians will fail on that, as the disputed lands are vast and far and predate any Arab occupations in the region and I would lose all my sympathies for any group who draw such a hard line, when it is clear it is unworkable.

If the Palestinians have a chance to establish a State, even if only a portion of the lands they feel they deserve, they should grab it, because from with the establishment of a State they will gain more power to push for more land concessions over time, and to better help their own people to some semblance of stability and a homeland.

The argument that ethnic groups are entitled to parts of the planet based on cultural ancestry is transparently bogus, yet the argument won't die. So it's best to ignore it.

 

[QP!]

When were any Arabs given a state like Israel? They haven’t. The Arab states were carved up after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, but no tract of land was ever set aside, the natives pushed out and a state was created like Israel.

The Arabs were systematically removed from the land they occupied, their villages were demolished and thrir property was confiscated. They were even denied the right to return after the 1948 war. Now, what offer of a smaller portion if land would satisfy you?

I can’t answer such an absurd question as your last one.

The Arabs were given states when "the Arab states were carved up after the fall of the Ottoman Empire".

How is it you ask the question and answer it at the same time.

If you cannot answer whether you think it is only the Palestinians who deserve a State but not the Jews and think that is an absurd question, then you do answer it. You are a zealot and we are done.

 

[QP!]

There has never been a State called Palestine.
After 1946, as a result of 22 years of hatred, fighting, battles, clash of religions, riots and lots of shouting, the British empire turned her Palestine problem over to the UN. The UN voted to divide up the LAND. The Jews got their 14.3% of the LAND, and created a Jewish and democratic STATE-called Israel.
the Arabs missed their chance to get an independent STATE; went to war, lost and so started a 70 plus years ‘state of hysteria, hate, new facts, a special narrative and a missed chance.

Correct.

If the Palestinian claim to the region is to be viewed as an Indigenous claim coming out of their deep history in the region then people need to understand who exactly those historical Palestinians were.

Since there was no State of Palestinian, and what we take about is a region that was comprised of many DIFFERENT peoples, including the Jews, Canaanites and Phoenicians and others, then when these "Palestinian" region people split you CANNOT say that they ones who retained the name "Palestinians" deserve a homeland, based on Indigenous claims but the Jews (who were also a Palestinian people) do not.


They BOTH deserve a homeland and they were both offered a homeland. The Jews accepted their and the remaining Palestinians refused theirs.

 

[martin]

The Arabs were given states when "the Arab states were carved up after the fall of the Ottoman Empire".

How is it you ask the question and answer it at the same time.

If you cannot answer whether you think it is only the Palestinians who deserve a State but not the Jews and think that is an absurd question, then you do answer it. You are a zealot and we are done.

What does "deserve a state" mean? In practical terms it would seem to mean nothing at all. States exist or not because of the power to make them exist and preserve their existence as well as their acceptance as states by
other states.

 

[domer76]

You're a lowlife who has to resort to foul language when challenged.

So far, none of you cocksuckers have posed a challenge. You’re all low hanging fruit.

 

[domer76]

Correct.

If the Palestinian claim to the region is to be viewed as an Indigenous claim coming out of their deep history in the region then people need to understand who exactly those historical Palestinians were.

Since there was no State of Palestinian, and what we take about is a region that was comprised of many DIFFERENT peoples, including the Jews, Canaanites and Phoenicians and others, then when these "Palestinian" region people split you CANNOT say that they ones who retained the name "Palestinians" deserve a homeland, based on Indigenous claims but the Jews (who were also a Palestinian people) do not.


They BOTH deserve a homeland and they were both offered a homeland. The Jews accepted their and the remaining Palestinians refused theirs.

They no more have a right or “deserve” a homeland any more than the white settlers deserved a larger nation under Manifest Destiny. You remember that, don’t you? Where the indigenous people were slaughtered, their land taken and they were moved to small tracts of land. Tell us all how that was any different than the Palestinian situation.

 

[QP!]

They no more have a right or “deserve” a homeland any more than the white settlers deserved a larger nation under Manifest Destiny. You remember that, don’t you? Where the indigenous people were slaughtered, their land taken and they were moved to small tracts of land. Tell us all how that was any different than the Palestinian situation.

Last attempt.

So if the Jews, a historical people of Palestine, do not "deserve" a homeland in the region... then are you also saying those who are Palestinians now, also do not deserve a homeland in the region?


Is your argument for NEITHER a Jewish or Palestinian State in the region and instead to allow those peoples to live in those areas (hopefully in some semblance of peace) but with no Countries created for them?


I cannot tell if that is your argument as you will not be clear but that argument is one that many Arabs in the region believe. That neither a Jewish or Palestinian State should be allowed to exist.

 

[QP!]

What does "deserve a state" mean? In practical terms it would seem to mean nothing at all. States exist or not because of the power to make them exist and preserve their existence as well as their acceptance as states by
other states.

Correct.

the world is a savage place, especially in the modern era's foundational stage when most of todays borders were set.

All around the world we can point to aggrieved peoples who were displaced by new comers who followed the principle of 'might makes right' when borders were set and countries formed.

At the end of the day we have no other principle, despite pretending we are evolved as Russia is now flexing. If Russia wins in Ukraine then their might makes them right and Ukraine WILL fold in to Russia. If they lose then Ukraine supported by those who oppose Russia are right, via might.

We have not changed, much.

So if we are going to acknowledge that, then Israel and its supporters who established the Jewish State were right, as they had the might.

But if you want to instead stick to arguments about more Indigenous type claims, saying Palestinians were the original peoples of that land, and deserve their own State, ... well that includes the Jews too as an original peoples of Palestine.

So either way you look at it the Jews would have a right to a State, in the region and when offered they said YES and took it. The remaining Palestinian people, when offered a comparable Country of their own said NO. And the argument seems to be, they will refuse as long as a Jewish State exists, as they think they should have and control the only one.

So while i am enormously sympathetic to the people trapped in this ongoing conflicts and tragedies i the region, I see it as the making of one key party. The Arab nations who DO NOT want either a country for Jews or Palestinians on their borders and who would see them fight forever and are willing to pay an Oil tax of billions upon billions to keep it going.

 

[serendipity]

Did you mean Arabs? Where do you get that "promise" from? Quote and source, please.

Jordan is the "Palestinian State".

You think you're so.smart but can't even tell the difference between there and their ffs!!

 

[domer76]

Last attempt.

So if the Jews, a historical people of Palestine, do not "deserve" a homeland in the region... then are you also saying those who are Palestinians now, also do not deserve a homeland in the region?


Is your argument for NEITHER a Jewish or Palestinian State in the region and instead to allow those peoples to live in those areas (hopefully in some semblance of peace) but with no Countries created for them?


I cannot tell if that is your argument as you will not be clear but that argument is one that many Arabs in the region believe. That neither a Jewish or Palestinian State should be allowed to exist.

Your notion of “deserving” a homeland makes no sense. The Palestinians HAD their homeland. It was demolished and confiscated. What the fuck about that do you not understand?

The Jews don’t “deserve” or “have a right” to a stolen land anymore than Catholics or Buddhists or any other religion.

 

[QP!]

Your notion of “deserving” a homeland makes no sense. The Palestinians HAD their homeland. It was demolished and confiscated. What the fuck about that do you not understand?

The Jews don’t “deserve” or “have a right” to a stolen land anymore than Catholics or Buddhists or any other religion.

I'm done with you as you are not an honest debater and not even trying to.

Your refusal to answer any questions shows you do not like the answer you would have to give, meaning you know your position is without basis or merit.

You either think that the country of Israel should never have been formed and both the Jews and Palestinians who lived in that region should have remained Stateless...

OR...

You think they DESERVE a State. BOTH groups of peoples.

If your position is the Jews deserve one but Palestinians do not, then i would not agree with that.

If your position is the Palestinians do but not the Jews, then i would not agree with that.

They BOTH deserve to have a State, and when offered the Jews accepted and the Palestinians do not.


I cannot agree with what you say above that neither the Jews or Palestinians "deserve" or "have a right" to a State and have to assume you are an Arab, as that has been the Arab position and why they have been undermining a Two State Solution, for so long.

 

[QP!]

I’m truly interested in why you feel Jews deserve a “homeland” while other groups who have suffered genocide have not been given same consideration? Thank you

I will give my reasoning but first do you think neither the Jews nor the Palestinians deserve any homeland in that region?

 

[QP!]

Why is that a condition of your answering, does my reply change yours?

Nope.

just not interested in getting in another one way conversation where i answer a persons questions but they refuse to engage mine. It is two way or forget it. So i will move on to other topics.

 

[QP!]

So, you are doing here, what you accuse others of doing. My question initiated this conversation, but you answered my question with a question instead of answering my question. You refuse to engage my question. Thanks, I guess I should now move on from this exchange.

Nope.

I am already engaged in one, one way conversation where i am engaging the questions a person is asking me and he is making zero attempt to answer mine.

You then come in and push for me to do the same again and i won't.

The issue with these complex situations is there are always certain issues people like to engage in, as they feel they have answers for those while at the same time they run like hell or refuse to answer any of the more complex issues that they feel undermine their position.

That is not debate.

If you want to play the role of interrogator and NOT have a conversation find someone else. I am very willing to have a conversation and answer ALL your questions but not while you are refusing to answer any of mine.

 

[QP!]

You judge me from how other’s act. Fine, I’ve learned a lesson here. Thanks for nothing.

I judge you based on an unwillingness to even engage in a simple question.

There is no question i will not answer in a fulsome way as i am engaging with the other poster and not known for shying away from any question. I am accused of going on too much, not too little.


If my request for a minor quid pro quo is a 'no go' for you and one you would walk away from, rather then engage, so be it.

For me, any honest discussion on these questions has to be done from a place of understanding. Does the person believe that 'neither the Jews nor Palestinians should ever have been considered for a homeland' (the typical Arab position). Or does the person believe ONLY the Palestinians or ONLY the Jews deserve a State? (the typical advocate of one side position). Or does the person believe both deserves a State. (my position and the more moderate).

 

[Phantasmal]

I apologize to everyone & originator of thread, I am banned and forgot

Pardon me.

 

[domer76]

I'm done with you as you are not an honest debater and not even trying to.

Your refusal to answer any questions shows you do not like the answer you would have to give, meaning you know your position is without basis or merit.

You either think that the country of Israel should never have been formed and both the Jews and Palestinians who lived in that region should have remained Stateless...

OR...

You think they DESERVE a State. BOTH groups of peoples.

If your position is the Jews deserve one but Palestinians do not, then i would not agree with that.

If your position is the Palestinians do but not the Jews, then i would not agree with that.

They BOTH deserve to have a State, and when offered the Jews accepted and the Palestinians do not.


I cannot agree with what you say above that neither the Jews or Palestinians "deserve" or "have a right" to a State and have to assume you are an Arab, as that has been the Arab position and why they have been undermining a Two State Solution, for so long.

I can’t help anyone who can’t grasp the concepts or the reality of what happened in Palestine in 1948 and prior and what is happening now.

The question “did the Jews ‘deserve’ a nation” is both absurd and nonsensical. It shows a lack of understanding of the history of the region

I have never tried to make the claim about either the Palestinians or Jews “deserving” or “having a right” to a State. That’s your verbiage, not mine.

I have tried to educate people on this forum about how this current human tragedy came to be. I can only do so much.

Regarding my heritage, I’m Irish and German. My people came from Alsace-Lorraine and County Galway and Limerick in Ireland.

 

[QP!]

I can’t help anyone who can’t grasp the concepts or the reality of what happened in Palestine in 1948 and prior and what is happening now.

The question “did the Jews ‘deserve’ a nation” is both absurd and nonsensical. It shows a lack of understanding of the history of the region

I have never tried to make the claim about either the Palestinians or Jews “deserving” or “having a right” to a State. That’s your verbiage, not mine.

I have tried to educate people on this forum about how this current human tragedy came to be. I can only do so much.

Regarding my heritage, I’m Irish and German. My people came from Alsace-Lorraine and County Galway and Limerick in Ireland.

Yes but you have clearly been coopted to the more Arab position, whether you know it or not, which is why you are hostile to even the idea that the Jews or Palestinians should have any Statehood. Your position is that they are free to live in those lands but have no form of State.

The very question of whether the Palestinians should be allowed to actually form and have a State is one that sets you off as being ridiculous.