A simple question for the pro life

patriot66 said:
It is the matter of whether taking the most innocent among us from the womb and killing it should be legal! I weep for mothers who kill their children in their body and consider it heinous, it doesn't mean I hate them I pity them!
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What about a situation where the mother was impregnated by rape? Is she not "the innocent" who will be made to suffer by carrying that baby to term?

And let's extend that to two possible scenarios.

1) She keeps the child because of laws that dictate she cannot have an abortion and is thus condemned to a life of rearing a child who is a constant reminder of the physical and psychological abuse and trauma of rape, making her psychological recovery from that event much more difficult and burdening her with the financial responsibility of a child she had no choice in conceiving. Her body will be forever changed in ways which may be subtle and/or unnoticeable to us, but which she will be keenly aware of.

2) She carries the baby to term because of laws that dictate she cannot have an abortion and is thus condemned to the physiological and psychological trauma of carrying a rape-caused child to term and giving birth to it. She will suffer years of psychological repercussions from being forced to carry a rape baby to term and her body will be forever changed in ways which may be subtle and/or unnoticeable to us, but which she will be keenly aware of.

2A) She will hand the baby over for adoption, and suffer the psychological repercussions of that choice after having been forced to carry a baby to term.

2Ai) The child will be placed in a foster home or (for lack of a better term) "orphanage", where thousands of children each year "age out" (turn 18) because they were never adopted. If not adopted, the child will be condemned to a life going from foster home to foster home, until they age out and enter the world with no family and no support system. Many of these aged-out young adults wind up homeless because they have no support system to help them as the struggle to enter the world.

And these are rather simplistic examples of possible outcomes.

For which innocent in these circumstances would you weep harder?
 
iolo said:
Why not do something to help them, then, instead of all your holy male-chauvinist posturing? When you've had to bear and bring up an unwanted child you may be worth listening to.
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What an idiotic post, unwanted children are the result of sexual intercourse, same as those who are wanted. Male chauvinist posturing?
 
Stelakh said:
Then it should be easy for you to prove me wrong, which I have no doubt you would delight in doing.

Version, book, chapter and verse of where the bible specifically tells us that Satan was an angel?
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?????....why do I have to "prove" it when you don't......as I say, you are entitled to your opinion, Christianity is entitled to its opinion......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
?????....why do I have to "prove" it when you don't......
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It's not that I'll understand IF you can't, I understand THAT you can't.

What do I have to prove? That the bible doesn't say Satan is an angel? It doesn't specifically state it.

Sorry if I'm not letting you put up the smokescreen of answering a question with a question because you don't actually have an answer.

And the truth is that while PEOPLE teach that Satan was an angel, the actual source material for CHRISTIANITY never says he is.

I've given you my answer, why can't you simply admit that the bible does not state that Satan is an angel? Where is the harm in accepting and admitting that it doesn't?

Are you an adult capable of making an adult admission or not?
 
Stelakh said:
What do I have to prove? That the bible doesn't say Satan is an angel?
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the Bible also doesn't specifically state he's a god.....to be honest, it doesn't even imply it......yet this conversation started because you claimed it did.....I merely corrected your misrepresentation......
 
PostmodernProphet said:
the Bible also doesn't specifically state he's a god.....to be honest, it doesn't even imply it......yet this conversation started because you claimed it did.....I merely corrected your misrepresentation......
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No, you are making a misrepresentation. I said:

Stelakh said:
There's more than one god out there in human history. And many of the world's religions, past and present, had a concept of the personification of evil. The Satan (it's a title) is just one of them, but he was never directly identified as an angel by the bible.

As a fun intellectual exercise, there's this:

Job 1:6 "Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them."

Now, the translation of this passage changes depending on which version of the bible you read, but the most often accepted translation is that "Sons of God" as appears in the King James Version becomes "Angels" in more modern texts. Regardless of the translation, however, it separates him from angels.

There are a few passages that read like this, noting angels AND Satan. But nowhere in the bible does it categorically state that being that carried the title Satan was, in fact, an angel.

And then there's Matthew 25-41: "‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." If "the devil" here is Satan, then it again separates him from "his angels" and seems to indicate he is an entity like God, who had his own angels (which is broadly why he was cast out of Heaven in the first place).

All references to Satan being an angel in any version of the bible are assumptions because the bible never states categorically that the Satan was an angel.

And that comes from knowledge of actually having read what is considered god's word.
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I said "seems to indicate he is an entity like God." I did not say, "He is a god." There is rather a big difference between the two phrases, and you are misrepresenting the conversation from the start.

Now, back to the actual question that you are still refusing to answer: Does the bible anywhere specifically state that the Satan is an angel?
 
Stelakh said:
No, you are making a misrepresentation. I said:



I said "seems to indicate he is an entity like God." I did not say, "He is a god." There is rather a big difference between the two phrases, and you are misrepresenting the conversation from the start.

Now, back to the actual question that you are still refusing to answer: Does the bible anywhere specifically state that the Satan is an angel?
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This debate has me on the edge of my seat! After you get to the bottom of this, can you settle once and for all, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Because that seems equally important to the way, personally, that I practice my faith.
 
Stelakh said:
Version, book, chapter & verse where Satan is directly identified as an angel?
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Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

New King James Version (NKJV)
Revelation 12:7-12

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
 
Stelakh said:
What about a situation where the mother was impregnated by rape? Is she not "the innocent" who will be made to suffer by carrying that baby to term?

And let's extend that to two possible scenarios.

1) She keeps the child because of laws that dictate she cannot have an abortion and is thus condemned to a life of rearing a child who is a constant reminder of the physical and psychological abuse and trauma of rape, making her psychological recovery from that event much more difficult and burdening her with the financial responsibility of a child she had no choice in conceiving. Her body will be forever changed in ways which may be subtle and/or unnoticeable to us, but which she will be keenly aware of.

2) She carries the baby to term because of laws that dictate she cannot have an abortion and is thus condemned to the physiological and psychological trauma of carrying a rape-caused child to term and giving birth to it. She will suffer years of psychological repercussions from being forced to carry a rape baby to term and her body will be forever changed in ways which may be subtle and/or unnoticeable to us, but which she will be keenly aware of.

2A) She will hand the baby over for adoption, and suffer the psychological repercussions of that choice after having been forced to carry a baby to term.

2Ai) The child will be placed in a foster home or (for lack of a better term) "orphanage", where thousands of children each year "age out" (turn 18) because they were never adopted. If not adopted, the child will be condemned to a life going from foster home to foster home, until they age out and enter the world with no family and no support system. Many of these aged-out young adults wind up homeless because they have no support system to help them as the struggle to enter the world.

And these are rather simplistic examples of possible outcomes.

For which innocent in these circumstances would you weep harder?
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So you are saying that raising a child conceived in rape can't happen, and that raising it to respect women wouldn't be a better outcome. Let a Christian family adopt it instead of some lesbian Hollywood actress, or gay Hollywood actor. I am surte you will say being raised Christian would be cruel and unusual punishment though. Do me a favor, and give me the percentage of Rape, Incest, and medical emergency abortions, and then how many are for convenience!
 
USFREEDOM911 said:
Satan Thrown Out of Heaven

New King James Version (NKJV)
Revelation 12:7-12

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer.
9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
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None of which identifies the Satan as an angel. It says he HAS angels, but not that he's one of them.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
yes you did......
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Unless you're picking and choosing to take things deliberately out of context (as I would expect anyone who is all Christian and no Christ to do in this situation), it's clear that when I said, "The Satan (it's a title) is just one of them," I was referring to the content of the "...personification of evil."
 
patriot66 said:
What an idiotic post, unwanted children are the result of sexual intercourse, same as those who are wanted. Male chauvinist posturing?
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Are you really half-witted, or is it your brainwashing? Did your slavemaster Founders want children when they raped black women, for instance? Do most American males go in for sex because they want children? Grow up!
 
patriot66 said:
So you are saying that raising a child conceived in rape can't happen, and that raising it to respect women wouldn't be a better outcome. Let a Christian family adopt it instead of some lesbian Hollywood actress, or gay Hollywood actor. I am surte you will say being raised Christian would be cruel and unusual punishment though. Do me a favor, and give me the percentage of Rape, Incest, and medical emergency abortions, and then how many are for convenience!
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No. I am saying that forcing a woman to carry a baby to term causes physiological and psychological damage to the mother who is forced to carry a rape baby to term.

I said two possible scenarios. This indicates that there are more. But the two I provided are very real, but people (very often people like you) are either unaware of them because they don't think for two seconds, or they are WELL aware of them but ignore them because they think their own beliefs are more important than the suffering of others. And what makes THAT so absolutely terrifying is that they do it under the guise of "meaning well and being righteous."

I have helped somewhat by providing information from three different studies right here in this thread. Or better yet, don't be so lazy and go find the statistics yourself.
 
patriot66 said:
So you are saying that raising a child conceived in rape can't happen, and that raising it to respect women wouldn't be a better outcome. Let a Christian family adopt it instead of some lesbian Hollywood actress, or gay Hollywood actor. I am surte you will say being raised Christian would be cruel and unusual punishment though. Do me a favor, and give me the percentage of Rape, Incest, and medical emergency abortions, and then how many are for convenience!
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You will never again own the control of womens bodies


it will never fucking happen


why not just try to take school lunches from hungry kids for jesus instead oh fake assed moral shit.


Oh and BTW discriminating against people for their religion is illegal in this democracy you traitor to the constitution
 
callinectes said:
This debate has me on the edge of my seat! After you get to the bottom of this, can you settle once and for all, how many angels can dance on the head of a pin? Because that seems equally important to the way, personally, that I practice my faith.
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You know, there actually is a point to asking about whether or not Satan is indeed confirmed to be an angel in the bible, and it's not about how you or anyone else practices their religion.

Anti-abortion arguments are heavily based on religious belief, which is why it's so important to understand where those beliefs come from and, more importantly, whether or not those beliefs jive with what's actually said in the religious text of the religion involved.

In this case, with Christianity, we have people who have either clearly never read the bible or have and don't understand it dictating what should be law, based upon their misinterpretations or, what's vastly more likely, what they have been told to believe by someone else.

Since there is such a heavy push by the religious right to regulate other peoples' own bodies, I think it's important to know: These people have no idea what the book says or doesn't because they've simply been told what to believe.

The argument of Satan's status is an example.

postmodernprophet came right out and said it: "Christianity teaches he is a fallen angel". But the bible didn't (and thanks so much, potnodernprophet, for the gift of that statement, which is exactly what I wanted in the first place). The bible is being interpreted by people who claim one thing is absolute fact, then when you point out it isn't try to dismiss fact by saying it's what "Christianity teaches," as if the relevant facts are actually irrelevant.

And then add to that the fact that postmodernprophet still refuses to make a simple, honest admission: that the bible never directly states that Satan is an angel.

That's important, too, because it shows an unwillingness to simply say, "I was wrong" or "Maybe I should have another look."

And these are the people who want to force their will on others through legislation.

You don't find that frightening just a little bit?
 
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PostmodernProphet said:
version. book, chapter and verse where it is stated he was not?......Christianity teaches he was, Stelakh teaches he wasn't.......Stelakh can believe anything he wants......it is irrelevant to what Christianity believes.....
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Read the Jewish teachings on the satan, they do not believe as Christians. Christians developed their own theology on Satan.
 
Rana said:
Read the Jewish teachings on the satan, they do not believe as Christians. Christians developed their own theology on Satan.
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Which is why we don't have a Hell. As I've said before around here, we've got Gehenna, which is like a suburb of Hell.

Rana, when we're having barbecues in our swank condo overlooking the Lake of Fire, you're invited.
 
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