A smarter way to get 'free' electricity

[Into the Night]

The alt right has lost any reasoned debate, and are stuck just trying to waste our time. It is sad to watch.

There is no such thing as 'the alt-right', Sock.

 

[gfm7175]

Thanks Into the Night.

You posted under yet another of your names for god only knows what possible reason.

Naturally.

Why does this "entertain" you? Are you a home-bound simpleton?

Obviously.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Solar panels make it harder to sell your home to all the potential buyers who don't want to be stradled by them.

How exactly do solar panels "straddle" anyone?

There is a calculus of whether they will pay off over the investment, but if they are already on a house, there is no investment. Your statement makes no sense.

 

[IBDaMann]

How exactly do solar panels "straddle" anyone?

Solar panels come with guaranteed maintenance costs ... or they don't work. Let's jump to your next statement.

There is a calculus of whether they will pay off over the investment, but if they are already on a house, there is no investment.

I notice that you did not answer my question. You have to answer my question for me to be able to answer yours.

Will the seller of the home lower the price of the home if I allow him to take his solar panels with him? You are dishonestly painting a scenario of free and installed solar panels, and not honestly conceding that the seller is including the solar panels in the price of the home and, in fact, forcing me to buy solar panels. I would be stradled with a purchase of overpriced, used, worn solar panels and that makes the house unattractive to me. So I make a counter offer, i.e. lower the price of the house by $20,000 and take your solar panels with you.

How does the home seller respond?

 

[IBDaMann]

The alt right has lost any reasoned debate, ...

Who are they? Am I one of them? I cite science and math a lot, along with the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions. Does all that make me "alt right"?

 

[Uncensored2008]

Solar panels come with guaranteed maintenance costs ... or they don't work. Let's jump to your next statement.

Utterly untrue.

Why do you make up complete nonsense and post it.

The ONLY maintenance for my panels is to hose off the dust occasionally.

I notice that you did not answer my question. You have to answer my question for me to be able to answer yours.

Will the seller of the home lower the price of the home if I allow him to take his solar panels with him?

You are yapping incoherently, as usual. You posed no such question to me.

You can't just "take the panels." Installation is a major portion of the cost. Further, removal of panels would require repair to the roof.

You are dishonestly painting a scenario of free and installed solar panels, and not honestly conceding that the seller is including the solar panels in the price of the home and, in fact, forcing me to buy solar panels. I would be stradled with a purchase of overpriced, used, worn solar panels and that makes the house unattractive to me. So I make a counter offer, i.e. lower the price of the house by $20,000 and take your solar panels with you.

How does the home seller respond?

If you made such an "offer" I would counter offer that you can fuck off.

You are babbling utter stupidity.

Solar panels mean you have no electric bill.

One cannot say the electricity is "free," since the panels are a $25-50K investment. BUT when buying a house, the presence of panels means the buyer will not have an electric bill.

Unless you really do have stock in the power company, not paying an electric bill is a good thing.

 

[IBDaMann]

Utterly untrue.

I'm not buying the idea that your solar panels will operate at 100% forever without any maintenance. Cleaning is maintenance, and you need to provide regular dust/dirt/pollen removal or you drop in effectiveness.

Why do you make up complete nonsense and post it.

You babble irrationally as a ruse to avoid answering tough questions. Your whining is dismissed.

You can't just "take the panels." Installation is a major portion of the cost. Further, removal of panels would require repair to the roof.

Hence the word "straddled." Learn the meaning of the word.

If you made such an "offer" I would counter offer that you can fuck off.

... and I wouldn't buy the house.

What about this do you not understand?

You are babbling utter stupidity.

Solar panels mean you have no electric bill.

Nope. This has already been covered exhaustively on JPP, and the prevailing wisdom is that you likely made a poor financial decision and can't bring yourself to speak about the downside and the full costs out of embarrassment.

One cannot say the electricity is "free," since the panels are a $25-50K investment. BUT when buying a house, the presence of panels means the buyer will not have an electric bill.

One might not have an electric bill, and one might have a huge electric bill, because everything depends on the amount of available sunlight, the amount of dust/pollen/dirt/bird poop on the panels and the age/wear on the panels. One will also have a huge personal loan payment.

Nobody who falls for the solar panel sales pitch wants to admit to the eventual buyers remorse and the disappointment in realizing that the systems aren't going to "pay for themselves" within the aggressive schedule promised by salesman.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

If you buy a house with paid for solar panels--doing it with leased ones or those still on a loan is nearly impossible to sell or buy--it depends on the age of the panels. If they've been in use for say 15 years, you are looking at replacing them or their failing with in under 10 and you get stuck with the replacement cost. Solar electricity is never "free" because the infrastructure to produce it isn't free.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I'm not buying the idea that your solar panels will operate at 100% forever without any maintenance. Cleaning is maintenance, and you need to provide regular dust/dirt/pollen removal or you drop in effectiveness.

Which as I already said, consists of turning the hose on them.

Will you also not buy a home with a driveway or sidewalks because you have to hose them off occasionally?

You babble irrationally as a ruse to avoid answering tough questions. Your whining is dismissed.


Hence the word "straddled." Learn the meaning of the word.

The word you were incapable of spelling properly?

... and I wouldn't buy the house.

What about this do you not understand?

You are babbling utter stupidity.

I doubt you could qualify. But you made utterly foolish blanket statements about what buyers in general would or wouldn't do.

Nope. This has already been covered exhaustively on JPP, and the prevailing wisdom is that you likely made a poor financial decision and can't bring yourself to speak about the downside and the full costs out of embarrassment.

ROFL

The level of stupidity in that claim is epic.

One might not have an electric bill, and one might have a huge electric bill, because everything depends on the amount of available sunlight, the amount of dust/pollen/dirt/bird poop on the panels and the age/wear on the panels. One will also have a huge personal loan payment.

Nobody who falls for the solar panel sales pitch wants to admit to the eventual buyers remorse and the disappointment in realizing that the systems aren't going to "pay for themselves" within the aggressive schedule promised by salesman.

You speak from the confident position of abject ignorance. I live in Southern California - we get a lot of sunlight. We are ruled by an insane Communist dictatorship that is outlawing all forms of power other than electricity to create a state monopoly on power, at the same time exponentially increasing the costs to the consumer. democrats are corrupt in general, California takes it to a whole new level.

The two best investments in my house was to have TexCoat put on it. Dropped summer temperatures a full 10 degrees, far more than traditional insulation (which did very little) or double pane vinyl windows. The other was the solar system. With the pool equipment and air conditioning, we had a $500 a month electric bill - which is now zero.

Solar panels die after about 10 years. But I bought a Panasonic system with a 30 year full replacement guarantee. I used and Owens-Corning installation dealer with 30 year maintenance as part of the package.

I hope you like it, because you; American taxpayers, paid for half of it. Since they are taxing the fuck out of me for these things, I'd be pretty stupid NOT to get a system.

 

[Into the Night]

How exactly do solar panels "straddle" anyone?

Because maintaining them (and your roof, which they are usually mounted on) becomes a pain in the butt. They are susceptible to all kinds of weather or critter damage, permanently destroying the panels. Removing them is a pain in the butt.

There is a calculus of whether they will pay off over the investment, but if they are already on a house, there is no investment. Your statement makes no sense.

Solar panels are not an investment. They are simply a waste of money. You don't sell your 'investment' for any kind of return.
Solar power is the most expensive method of generating electric power there is. If you want power separate from the grid, buy a decent generator and have it properly installed. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than solar panels.

 

[Into the Night]

Who are they? Am I one of them? I cite science and math a lot, along with the Constitution and the Geneva Conventions. Does all that make me "alt right"?

The Sock here keeps using the term. He's never defined it.
I suppose the use of this meaningless buzzword spreads, just like 'climate change' (another undefined buzzword).

It's supposed to make one thound thmart (as you so eloquently put it) in some way. It just makes them sound stupid.

 

[Uncensored2008]

If you buy a house with paid for solar panels--doing it with leased ones or those still on a loan is nearly impossible to sell or buy--it depends on the age of the panels. If they've been in use for say 15 years, you are looking at replacing them or their failing with in under 10 and you get stuck with the replacement cost. Solar electricity is never "free" because the infrastructure to produce it isn't free.

"Leased" I agree with you.

But what do you mean, "on loan?" If I finance sewer repair and then sell the house, the loan I took to repair the sewers doesn't transfer to the new owner.

Solar energy in general isn't very good technology. At the time I bought it was a very good deal for me - heavily subsidized reducing my cost to a point that it was a no brainer.

I SHOULD be getting a check back from Edison since I generate more than I use - but SCE bribed the corrupt Communist rulers and just get to sell any excess I make.

NextGen will be coming out next week to pressure wash the panels - no cost to me. They do that once a year, part of the 30 year zero risk Owens-Corning package.

 

[Into the Night]

Utterly untrue.

Heh. I already know you don't maintain your panels.

Why do you make up complete nonsense and post it.

He isn't. Solar panels require maintenance and replacement from time to time.

The ONLY maintenance for my panels is to hose off the dust occasionally.

I already know you don't maintain your panels.

You are yapping incoherently, as usual. You posed no such question to me.

He just did. You can't evade that way! Answer the question put to you.

You can't just "take the panels."

So you refuse to do so.

Installation is a major portion of the cost. Further, removal of panels would require repair to the roof.

I thought you said the electricity was free.

If you made such an "offer" I would counter offer that you can fuck off.

That's a lousy way to sell your house. You won't get any offers that way!

You are babbling utter stupidity.

Solar panels mean you have no electric bill.

Yes you do.

One cannot say the electricity is "free," since the panels are a $25-50K investment.

That's your electric bill, plus connection fees. Solar panels are not an investment.

BUT when buying a house, the presence of panels means the buyer will not have an electric bill.

Yes they do.

Unless you really do have stock in the power company, not paying an electric bill is a good thing.

Buying stock in a power company can be beneficial (to you AND the power company!). Both parties win.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Because maintaining them (and your roof, which they are usually mounted on) becomes a pain in the butt. They are susceptible to all kinds of weather or critter damage, permanently destroying the panels. Removing them is a pain in the butt.

Solar panels are not an investment. They are simply a waste of money. You don't sell your 'investment' for any kind of return.
Solar power is the most expensive method of generating electric power there is. If you want power separate from the grid, buy a decent generator and have it properly installed. It's a hell of a lot cheaper than solar panels.

Simply not true.

Homes will use electricity
Solar panels create electricity
Thus solar panels are an investment in energy creation.

The calculus boils down to the cost of the system vs. return. What is your monthly electric bill? If you buy a $25,000 system and have a mean average bill of $200 the break even point is 10.2 years. If you have the system for 30 years, the return is 300%.

It's a capital improvement and must be analyzed as any other investment in capital improvement would. What is the payback? What is the effective life? What is the rate of depreciation?

Hence a $25K system in the above scenario is a solid investment. Now if you had to pay the REAL cost, which would be closer to $60K it would no longer be such a great deal. BUT the real catch is you are paying the delta anyway, because the federal government is going to subsidize the manufacture of these systems whether you use them or not.

 

[Into the Night]

I'm not buying the idea that your solar panels will operate at 100% forever without any maintenance. Cleaning is maintenance, and you need to provide regular dust/dirt/pollen removal or you drop in effectiveness.

There's more maintenance of them than that. I've already covered some of it. He just wants to ignore it.

* The cost of maintaining vegetation so the panels can stay in sunlight instead of getting shaded by vegetation. This includes the cost of pruning/cutting/moving/removing any trees.
* The cost of pest control. Even small pests can do major damage to the panels or their wiring.
* The cost of weather damage. Panels are notoriously susceptible to damage from hail, snow, wind, or even heavy rain. They are damaged over time from being exposed to sunlight as well (as UV breaks down all plastics). Damaged panels or even the entire system may have to be replaced from such damage.
* Ongoing connection fees with the electrical supplier in your area. The grid provides a ballast, and provides power to the house when the panels don't (such as during nighttime or during a solar eclipse).
* Ongoing maintenance of any battery system used to ballast the array. This dangerous maintenance should be carried out by qualified personnel. It's not a DIY item. Those batteries are dangerous.
* Ongoing maintenance of the roof itself, made much more difficult by the presence of solar panels.

Purchase and installation prices are higher than he's quoting as well. He's quoting what HE pays for them, while the remainder of the cost is paid for as welfare by the government (communism).

You babble irrationally as a ruse to avoid answering tough questions. Your whining is dismissed.
Hence the word "straddled." Learn the meaning of the word.
... and I wouldn't buy the house.

Neither would I. His own arrogant attitude kills the sale.

You are babbling utter stupidity.

Nope. This has already been covered exhaustively on JPP, and the prevailing wisdom is that you likely made a poor financial decision and can't bring yourself to speak about the downside and the full costs out of embarrassment.


One might not have an electric bill, and one might have a huge electric bill, because everything depends on the amount of available sunlight, the amount of dust/pollen/dirt/bird poop on the panels and the age/wear on the panels. One will also have a huge personal loan payment.

Nobody who falls for the solar panel sales pitch wants to admit to the eventual buyers remorse and the disappointment in realizing that the systems aren't going to "pay for themselves" within the aggressive schedule promised by salesman.

They never pay for themselves.

You are quite right in pointing out the sales brochure he is quoting from.

 

[Uncensored2008]

Heh. I already know you don't maintain your panels.

The only "maintenance" is washing them off occasionally.

He isn't. Solar panels require maintenance and replacement from time to time.

Appeal to ignorance fallacy. There is no maintenance beyond simple cleaning.

I already know you don't maintain your panels.

Appeal to ignorance fallacy. There is no maintenance beyond simple cleaning.

He just did. You can't evade that way! Answer the question put to you.

So you refuse to do so.

Appeal to ignorance fallacy. There is no maintenance beyond simple cleaning.

I thought you said the electricity was free.

Show me where I said that?

Fabrication fallacy.

That's a lousy way to sell your house. You won't get any offers that way!

None at all?

ROFL

If someone were to tender an offer contingent upon me removing the pool, they would also be told to fuck off.

Yes you do.

That's your electric bill, plus connection fees. Solar panels are not an investment.

What are these "connection fees" you speak of?

Yes they do.

Fabrication fallacy.

Buying stock in a power company can be beneficial (to you AND the power company!). Both parties win.

Edison International has done poorly in the market and is not a good investment.

 

[Into the Night]

Which as I already said, consists of turning the hose on them.

Did you know that hosing them off can actually damage the panels? I already know you don't maintain your panels properly.

Will you also not buy a home with a driveway or sidewalks because you have to hose them off occasionally?

I don't, but they require more maintenance than that.
Use a blower. Don't waste water. You don't have it to waste.

The word you were incapable of spelling properly?

The word is spelled properly.

I doubt you could qualify.

He could easily qualify. So could I (I could pay for the entire purchase in cash!), but I won't...not with YOUR attitude.

But you made utterly foolish blanket statements about what buyers in general would or wouldn't do.

No, he didn't. He made no general statements at all.

ROFL

The level of stupidity in that claim is epic.

Argument of the Stone fallacy. You can't make the arguments already presented just disappear.

You speak from the confident position of abject ignorance. I live in Southern California

There's an oxymoron right there. I've found most people in the Southern SDTC are speaking from a confident position of abject arrogance. They think that everywhere is just like where they live.

It isn't.

- we get a lot of sunlight.

You also get hail, lightning storms, dust storms, high winds, and occasionally heavy rains, all of which can easily DE$TROY your panels.

We are ruled by an insane Communist dictatorship that is outlawing all forms of power other than electricity to create a state monopoly on power, at the same time exponentially increasing the costs to the consumer. democrats are corrupt in general, California takes it to a whole new level.

The King has decided to no longer produce sufficient power for the SDTC. When are you folks going to overthrow your tyrannical dictator?

The two best investments in my house was to have TexCoat put on it. Dropped summer temperatures a full 10 degrees, far more than traditional insulation (which did very little) or double pane vinyl windows. The other was the solar system. With the pool equipment and air conditioning, we had a $500 a month electric bill - which is now zero.

TexCoat is not an investment. It is a coating you BUY and never sell.
Solar panels are not an investment. You BUY them and never sell them.

Your electrical bill is NOT zero. You and those around you paid for YOUR solar panels. They are EXPEN$IVE!
...and for what? Solar panels the produce NOTHING at night, and piddle power during the day.

So have you disconnected your electrical service completely?

Solar panels die after about 10 years. But I bought a Panasonic system with a 30 year full replacement guarantee.

Think about this. Panasonic is guaranteeing replacing the entire array 3 times at their own expense??? I doubt the Japanese are quite that stupid. Maybe you had better read the exception clauses of that 'guarantee'.

I used and Owens-Corning installation dealer with 30 year maintenance as part of the package.

You hired someone to do the maintenance you won't do...gotit.

I hope you like it, because you; American taxpayers, paid for half of it.

And you seem proud of that fact, that you ripped off other people to pay for your 'perfect' electrical system. That's theft, dude. There's no other word for it.

Since they are taxing the fuck out of me for these things, I'd be pretty stupid NOT to get a system.

So instead of being a victim of theft, you decided to become the thief. Gotit.


Such is the logic in the Southern SDTC.

 

[Into the Night]

"Leased" I agree with you.
But what do you mean, "on loan?"

A lease is a type of loan, dude.

If I finance sewer repair and then sell the house, the loan I took to repair the sewers doesn't transfer to the new owner.

So you're going to eat the entire cost plus the interest, eh?

Solar energy in general isn't very good technology. At the time I bought it was a very good deal for me - heavily subsidized reducing my cost to a point that it was a no brainer.

You can't justify theft, dude.

I SHOULD be getting a check back from Edison since I generate more than I use - but SCE bribed the corrupt Communist rulers and just get to sell any excess I make.

No, they aren't buying from you. It's too expensive.

NextGen will be coming out next week to pressure wash the panels - no cost to me. They do that once a year, part of the 30 year zero risk Owens-Corning package.

Pressure washing panels can destroy them!

That's a 'zero risk package'??????!?

 

[Into the Night]

The only "maintenance" is washing them off occasionally.
Appeal to ignorance fallacy. There is no maintenance beyond simple cleaning.
Appeal to ignorance fallacy. There is no maintenance beyond simple cleaning.
Appeal to ignorance fallacy. There is no maintenance beyond simple cleaning.

I already know you don't maintain your panels. You don't have to keep repeating it. Buzzword fallacies. Fallacy fallacies. Repetition fallacy (chanting).

Show me where I said that?

Denying your own posts won't work. Anyone can read them.

Fabrication fallacy.

No such fallacy. Buzzword fallacy.

None at all?

ROFL

If someone were to tender an offer contingent upon me removing the pool, they would also be told to fuck off.

Again...no sale. You can't sell your own by telling them to fuck off.

What are these "connection fees" you speak of?

So you have NO electrical service from Edison? You already claimed you do. You are now locked in paradox. That's irrational. You cannot argue both side of a paradox. Which is it, dude?

Edison International has done poorly in the market and is not a good investment.

So find a good utility that isn't so fucked up. There are plenty of them out there!

 

[IBDaMann]

Which as I already said, consists of turning the hose on them.

I don't feel like rehashing all the posts on solar panel maintenance that you conveniently decided to not read. No, it takes more than just a hosing down. Maybe someone in the right part of California can experience minimal hardened deposits, but regular hosing with hard water can lead to accumulating hardened deposits.

But you made utterly foolish blanket statements about what buyers in general would or wouldn't do.

You made the utterly foolish assumption that buyers in general live in southern California.

I live in Southern California

You don't say!

We are ruled by an insane Communist dictatorship

Socialist.

... that is outlawing all forms of power other than electricity

Well, then move out of the State.

... democrats are corrupt in general, California takes it to a whole new level.

Well, then move out of the State.

Let me modify my response to your question. I'm considering buying a house, and I happen to be looking at a house that has solar panels. Then I notice that the house is in California and I decide to pass. There, how does that work for you?

The two best investments in my house was to have TexCoat put on it. Dropped summer temperatures a full 10 degrees, far more than traditional insulation (which did very little) or double pane vinyl windows. The other was the solar system. With the pool equipment and air conditioning, we had a $500 a month electric bill - which is now zero.

I've learned that sadly, the claims of solar power owners cannot be taken on face value. They withhold all the negative/downside while crediting their solar panels for having brought peace to the Middle East.

Solar panels die after about 10 years. But I bought a Panasonic system with a 30 year full replacement guarantee.

... which I'm sure you were given free of charge (no pun intended).