a vote for John McCain....

uscitizen said:
On the other aspect of what you discussed Damo.
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Again, that has not changed even a small amount. Only your view of how I believe has changed. You are beginning to understand me. It's only taken some years for you to catch on, so to speak.
 
Damocles said:
Again, that has not changed even a small amount. Only your view of how I believe has changed. You are beginning to understand me. It's only taken some years for you to catch on, so to speak.
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Ohh I guess it was another Damocles on the other boards then. sorry.

You never supported Bush at all ?
 
uscitizen said:
Ohh I guess it was another Damocles on the other boards then. sorry.

You never supported Bush at all ?
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My beliefs on the issues in this thread that I spoke about have not changed, yet you tried to say I was "catching on", then when presented with evidence that I wasn't "catching on" but just restating the same beliefs I have held on these issues from the beginning you attempt to add this inanity?

You are "crawfishing" now. Using your own phraseology.

It's not like I'm going to start voting Obama. I disagree with him on policy. Especially against a civilian law enforcement entity that is as "well-funded and equipped" as the current military. That is stupid.

While being against Obama, this does not mean I am "for" McCain. I have already stated that I am not voting for him and my reasons for that.
 
I said on the other aspects you have changed Damo. Not on the abortion thing. sheesh. Just trying to confuse an old fart I suppose.
 
Abortion is the last worst choice a woman should ever have to make. But unfortunately, sometimes they do. You throw out numbers like 48 million since Roe but just a month or so ago I was able to show that CDC numbers include D&E's for fetuses that die in utero, so even you don't know the real numbers but are willing to go for that top number without so much as a bit of proof. Nations have attempted to make abortion illegal. Romania under communism is the best example of that. They have all failed, and Romania failed to it's own detriment, with 10s of thousands of children living in state run orphanages which just on a brain developement level is not real good for curbing behavior and personality disorders. I have three children. The only three I have ever been responsible for conceiving. As a pro-choice person I did not jump at the possiblity that I could get my wife to abort one of my kids, which is what you totalitarians seem to think we that support safe legal abortions want. I want them to be rare, but as long as conservatives run school boards were are going to live with the logic that teaching kids to drive with their seatbelts causes them to have accidents. Rational, thoughtful and intelligent sex education along with the ability for teenagers do have access to birth control is one of the best ways to do this. THe birth rate in this country is up, and our population is still growing. Make every child a wanted child and we can do away with abortion without having to legislate.
 
midcan5 said:
It makes a great deal of difference, it teaches a lesson that can only be learned in one way. And doing it well matters. And doing it well ain't easy either.


Socrtease, good post.
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What difference does being a parent make with regard to supporting the right of unborn children to live. (or supporting the right to treat them like cord wood?)

there are good parents who support both sides of the issue. there are poor parents who support both sides of the issue.

Again, what difference does it make? Learning the difficulty of being a good parent is supposed to make one realize some are better off dead? Learning parenting skills makes one realize unborn children are worth denying as human? What exactly does learning parenting skills have to do with abortion?
 
Socrtease said:
Abortion is the last worst choice a woman should ever have to make. But unfortunately, sometimes they do. You throw out numbers like 48 million since Roe but just a month or so ago I was able to show that CDC numbers include D&E's for fetuses that die in utero, so even you don't know the real numbers but are willing to go for that top number without so much as a bit of proof. Nations have attempted to make abortion illegal. Romania under communism is the best example of that. They have all failed, and Romania failed to it's own detriment, with 10s of thousands of children living in state run orphanages which just on a brain developement level is not real good for curbing behavior and personality disorders. I have three children. The only three I have ever been responsible for conceiving. As a pro-choice person I did not jump at the possiblity that I could get my wife to abort one of my kids, which is what you totalitarians seem to think we that support safe legal abortions want. I want them to be rare, but as long as conservatives run school boards were are going to live with the logic that teaching kids to drive with their seatbelts causes them to have accidents. Rational, thoughtful and intelligent sex education along with the ability for teenagers do have access to birth control is one of the best ways to do this. THe birth rate in this country is up, and our population is still growing. Make every child a wanted child and we can do away with abortion without having to legislate.
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D&Es are a SMALL fraction of total abortions, and you know it. As such, if you would feel better if I lowered the number to 45 million? Or should we be totally ridiculous and cut the figure in half to account for possible D&Es performed of deceased fetuses. So let's say it is 24 million human children legally killed since Roe v Wade. Gee, that makes me fell SO much better, how about you?

And I always find it somewhat humorous how people who support deliberately deny the humanity of a class of humans for the purpose of killing them go around lebeling people who oppose the process as totalitarian.

Lots of countries try to outlaw all types of homicide. Somehow it does not prevent all homicides. Sad that little fact. But at least society is trying to protect you and me and other human being from being killed, and does its best to separate those who would kill others without justifiable cause from the rest of society.

So protecting unborn children may cause some other problems. So to hell with the little fuckers, they can die so we don't have more problems. Great attitude.

But gee whiz, I keep forgetting you have so totally deluded yourselves into believing they are not "true" humans that it is just fine to kill them for the convenience of society.

And we have been around the other methods to prevent abortions circle before. I agree with a good, comprehensive sex education program that includes (but is not limited to) the sage advice to wait before engaging in sexual activity. I disagree with schools handing out birth control - that is an area for parents to deal with as they see fit, not the state. But I do support schools advising students on the proper use of birth control.

But whatever is done to prevent unplanned pregnancies does not diminish the FACT that unborn children are human. And being human they deserve to have their basic human rights given equal treatment under law by society.

As long as we allow opinion to determine which humans deserve human rights, we are doing the same thing that allowed legal slavery, that was used to justify the holocaust, and was used to allow or justify all the other crimes against humanity that occurred when a select group of humans were deemed through law to not be worthy of human rights. It was wrong every time before in history, and it is wrong now, no matter what the consequences of protecting their rights.
 
Socrtease said:
Abortion is the last worst choice a woman should ever have to make. But unfortunately, sometimes they do. You throw out numbers like 48 million since Roe but just a month or so ago I was able to show that CDC numbers include D&E's for fetuses that die in utero, so even you don't know the real numbers but are willing to go for that top number without so much as a bit of proof. Nations have attempted to make abortion illegal. Romania under communism is the best example of that. They have all failed, and Romania failed to it's own detriment, with 10s of thousands of children living in state run orphanages which just on a brain developement level is not real good for curbing behavior and personality disorders. I have three children. The only three I have ever been responsible for conceiving. As a pro-choice person I did not jump at the possiblity that I could get my wife to abort one of my kids, which is what you totalitarians seem to think we that support safe legal abortions want. I want them to be rare, but as long as conservatives run school boards were are going to live with the logic that teaching kids to drive with their seatbelts causes them to have accidents. Rational, thoughtful and intelligent sex education along with the ability for teenagers do have access to birth control is one of the best ways to do this. THe birth rate in this country is up, and our population is still growing. Make every child a wanted child and we can do away with abortion without having to legislate.
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Next time you are unhappy just have someone kill you, because it will make the pain go away...
 
Good Luck said:
Again, what difference does it make? Learning the difficulty of being a good parent is supposed to make one realize some are better off dead? Learning parenting skills makes one realize unborn children are worth denying as human? What exactly does learning parenting skills have to do with abortion?
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A great deal as it is real world experience and not the empty moralizing that requires nothing from the moralizer. Raise a few children in poverty and then come back to us. Campaign to increase child care, then you have done something.

http://www.globalissues.org/TradeRelated/Poverty/death/
 
midcan5 said:
It makes a great deal of difference, it teaches a lesson that can only be learned in one way. And doing it well matters. And doing it well ain't easy either.


Socrtease, good post.
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tell us wise one... what exactly does having kids teach you about whether they are alive prior to birth or not?
 
Superfreak said:
tell us wise one... what exactly does having kids teach you about whether they are alive prior to birth or not?
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Simple, it makes you human, it allows you the empathy to judge another from a point of view of understanding. And while you may still disagree you at least recognize you ain't God and causing great pain to the woman in trouble, and bringing a child into a world that doesn't give a flying f_k for it is a hard thing.
 
midcan5 said:
Simple, it makes you human, it allows you the empathy to judge another from a point of view of understanding. And while you may still disagree you at least recognize you ain't God and causing great pain to the woman in trouble, and bringing a child into a world that doesn't give a flying f_k for it is a hard thing.
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So anyone who does not have children isn't human? Can't possess empathy?

This from the individual who supports ending a human life.... because someone feels inconvenienced.

You speak of great pain... then speak with ease about taking an innocent life.
 
Superfreak said:
So anyone who does not have children isn't human? Can't possess empathy?

This from the individual who supports ending a human life.... because someone feels inconvenienced.

You speak of great pain... then speak with ease about taking an innocent life.
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Well, their mommy didn't want them, so they must be eager to die.
 
Superfreak said:
So anyone who does not have children isn't human? Can't possess empathy?

This from the individual who supports ending a human life.... because someone feels inconvenienced.

You speak of great pain... then speak with ease about taking an innocent life.
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this from someone who said Edwards could not emphasize with the poor because he was rich ?

Ohh yeah this is of course different. ;)
 
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