So? What does that have to do with anything? God is not the government and I don't think Jesus refuted much of what he said.
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Alexis de Tocqueville: Democracy and Christianity
- Thread starter Cypress
- Start date
So? What does that have to do with anything? God is not the government and I don't think Jesus refuted much of what he said.
BidenPresident
Verified User
So? What does that have to do with anything? God is not the government and I don't think Jesus refuted much of what he said.
Good, you agree with me. Jesus never refuted past teachings.
BidenPresident
Verified User
Who was Jesus told to murder?
Himself. Passively letting himself be put to death.
Good. That was my point.
But, I would not be surprised if somebody did refuse. Conscientious objectors refused to serve in combat and were usually given non-combat positions because of their religious beliefs (Quakers).
Good, you agree with me. Jesus never refuted past teachings.
Our discussion was about individuals (not Jesus) refusing to follow immoral orders from the government or orders against their religion.
BidenPresident
Verified User
Our discussion was about individuals (not Jesus) refusing to follow immoral orders from the government or orders against their religion.
Right. And you proved me correct.
Himself. Passively letting himself be put to death.
He really didn't have a choice. Not being passive would have accomplished nothing.
BidenPresident
Verified User
He really didn't have a choice. Not being passive would have accomplished nothing.
Obviously he had a choice. Just like Socrates. They wanted to be put to death.
Right. And you proved me correct.
Then you were agreeing with me. Refusing to commit immoral acts ordered by the government is better than committing those acts even if it means defying the government. Religious beliefs led to more moral actions than government orders.
BidenPresident
Verified User
Then you were agreeing with me. Refusing to commit immoral acts ordered by the government is better than committing those acts even if it means defying the government. Religious beliefs led to more moral actions than government orders.
You proved only that some people object to government telling them to wear or not wear religious garments and other trivialities. Nothing to do with morality.
BidenPresident
Verified User
I don't see how any Christian can own a gun. This is not "turn the other cheek" philosophy.
I cannot say I know anything about how distrust of the government tracks with Christianity.
I was not suggesting distrust of government tracks with Christianity in general. I was just giving one example of those two things going in opposite directions.
I don't generally believe societal trends can be explained by any other events---crime, gun control, teen birth rate, divorce, trust in government.
For example, crime rates went up and down despite changes in gun laws and other factors.
You proved only that some people object to government telling them to wear or not wear religious garments and other trivialities. Nothing to do with morality.
Murdering Jews, killing Indians, etc. are not trivialities to most people. If anyone refused to commit those acts for religious (or moral) grounds it is distrust of government according to your definition; but, it is certainly one which is admirable and a higher moral plane than obeying government.
BidenPresident
Verified User
Murdering Jews, killing Indians, etc. are not trivialities to most people. If anyone refused to commit those acts for religious (or moral) grounds it is distrust of government according to your definition; but, it is certainly one which is admirable and a higher moral plane than obeying government.
Sorry, I truly have no idea what you're talking about. I lost the point.
I don't see how any Christian can own a gun. This is not "turn the other cheek" philosophy.
It could be for target practice, hunting, or preventing your family from being murdered.
BidenPresident
Verified User
It could be for target practice, hunting, or preventing your family from being murdered.
So, not Christian. Agree.
Sorry, I truly have no idea what you're talking about. I lost the point.
I'm talking about historical examples of immoral acts that came from government policy. You originally said Christianity promotes distrust of government. My point is that is not necessarily a bad thing. It is immoral to kill an innocent person but not immoral to disobey government.
And, refusing to commit immoral acts ordered by the government do not have to be based on religion. If I refuse to commit government ordered immoral acts for moral (but not religious) reasons that makes an atheist just as likely to distrust government as Christians.
BidenPresident
Verified User
I'm talking about historical examples of immoral acts that came from government policy. You originally said Christianity promotes distrust of government. My point is that is not necessarily a bad thing. It is immoral to kill an innocent person but not immoral to disobey government.
And, refusing to commit immoral acts ordered by the government do not have to be based on religion. If I refuse to commit government ordered immoral acts for moral (but not religious) reasons that makes an atheist just as likely to distrust government as Christians.
Then, religion is useless. Just self-righteous pontificators.
So, not Christian. Agree.
But not contrary to Christian belief. I don't think "turn the other cheek" means allowing your or your family to be murdered. You are being more moral to protect their lives than turning the other cheek