Alexis de Tocqueville: Democracy and Christianity

You keep lying. Shame on you. Thread fail.

You attempted to innocently claim you were just here for intelligent critical debate-- but then you cynically tried to link Christianity to Hitler and German Nazi fascists -
and then you lied about doing it, even though your words are preserved digitally >

You cannot lie your way out of posts written by your own hand
Look at European fascism in Germany and Italy. They were both overtly religious and supported Christian values.

Hitler was a Catholic. Nazi propaganda was always about being moral.
 
You attempted to innocently claim you were just here for intelligent critical debate-- but then you cynically tried to link Christianity to Hitler and German Nazi fascists -
and then you lied about doing it, even though your words are preserved digitally >

You cannot lie your way out of posts written by your own hand


You are no different than the right wing trolls. When you lose a debate you act like a 10 year old.
 
Did you look at a world map yet to see if liberal democracies track with where Protestant majority countries are? It should only take you 15 seconds.

If so, how good does it track?

I do not think Christianity directly caused democracy, and I think Tocqueville might be wrong that Catholicism is best at promoting democracy.

And anyone can do Google research to highlight corruption and crimes committed by churches.


The question Tocqueville, and other scholars raise, is not if there is crime and corruption in churches.

The question is - out of all the major world religions - was there something about the social context of Christianity ( and I would say Protestantism particularly) which facilitated a breeding ground for democratic ideas to ultimately flourish.

YOU may want to find a link between 'Christianity' and 'Democracy', I don't see it. More like after a thousand years of 'Christianity', the Age of Reason emerged, along with the rise of 'Thinking'.
As 'Christianity' was being questioned if legitimate, 'Democracy' was taking hold.

Cypress: "The question is - out of all the major world religions - was there something about the social context of Christianity ( and I would say Protestantism particularly) which facilitated a breeding ground for democratic ideas to ultimately flourish."
Jack: No.

"The French Revolution initially began with attacks on Church corruption and the wealth of the higher clergy, an action with which even many Christians could identify, since the Gallican Church held a dominant role in pre-revolutionary France. During a two-year period known as the Reign of Terror, the episodes of anti-clericalism grew more violent than any in modern European history. The new revolutionary authorities suppressed the Church, abolished the Catholic monarchy, nationalized Church property, exiled 30,000 priests, and killed hundreds more.[4] In October 1793, the Christian calendar was replaced with one reckoned from the date of the Revolution, and Festivals of Liberty, Reason, and the Supreme Being were scheduled. New forms of moral religion emerged, including the deistic Cult of the Supreme Being and the atheistic Cult of Reason,[5] with the revolutionary government briefly mandating observance of the former in April 1794.[6][7][8][9][10]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution
 
YOU may want to find a link between 'Christianity' and 'Democracy', I don't see it. More like after a thousand years of 'Christianity', the Age of Reason emerged, along with the rise of 'Thinking'.
As 'Christianity' was being questioned if legitimate, 'Democracy' was taking hold.

Cypress: "The question is - out of all the major world religions - was there something about the social context of Christianity ( and I would say Protestantism particularly) which facilitated a breeding ground for democratic ideas to ultimately flourish."
Jack: No.

"The French Revolution initially began with attacks on Church corruption and the wealth of the higher clergy, an action with which even many Christians could identify, since the Gallican Church held a dominant role in pre-revolutionary France. During a two-year period known as the Reign of Terror, the episodes of anti-clericalism grew more violent than any in modern European history. The new revolutionary authorities suppressed the Church, abolished the Catholic monarchy, nationalized Church property, exiled 30,000 priests, and killed hundreds more.[4] In October 1793, the Christian calendar was replaced with one reckoned from the date of the Revolution, and Festivals of Liberty, Reason, and the Supreme Being were scheduled. New forms of moral religion emerged, including the deistic Cult of the Supreme Being and the atheistic Cult of Reason,[5] with the revolutionary government briefly mandating observance of the former in April 1794.[6][7][8][9][10]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dechristianization_of_France_during_the_French_Revolution


Religion is the enemy of democracy. Christianity is a totalitarian system. No surprise our fascist uprising was funded by Christian groups.
 
You attempted to innocently claim you were just here for intelligent critical debate-- but then you cynically tried to link Christianity to Hitler and German Nazi fascists -
and then you lied about doing it, even though your words are preserved digitally >

You cannot lie your way out of posts written by your own hand


"German Christians (German: Deutsche Christen) was a pressure group and a movement within the German Evangelical Church that existed between 1932 and 1945, aligned towards the antisemitic, racist and Führerprinzip ideological principles of Nazism with the goal to align German Protestantism as a whole towards those principles.[1] Their advocacy of these principles led to a schism within 23 of the initially 28 regional church bodies (Landeskirchen) in Germany and the attendant foundation of the opposing Confessing Church in 1934.[2]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians_(movement)
 
"German Christians (German: Deutsche Christen) was a pressure group and a movement within the German Evangelical Church that existed between 1932 and 1945, aligned towards the antisemitic, racist and Führerprinzip ideological principles of Nazism with the goal to align German Protestantism as a whole towards those principles.[1] Their advocacy of these principles led to a schism within 23 of the initially 28 regional church bodies (Landeskirchen) in Germany and the attendant foundation of the opposing Confessing Church in 1934.[2]"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Christians_(movement)

Are you ever going to look at a world map to see if liberal democracies historically track with protestant-majority countries, and tell me what you find?


I am not even fond of Protestants, but I believe in trying to be intellectually honest
 
Look! Just do me a favor, and don't try to tell me anything is sacred anymore! Please! And Thank You very much!

Not after this son-of-a-bitch ruined it all for me!

5e4627443c3abec9eb35dfaa7cf1c3e01c-trump-with-bible-dc-protests.rsquare.w700.jpg


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Are you ever going to look at a world map to see if liberal democracies historically track with protestant-majority countries, and tell me what you find?


I am not even fond of Protestants, but I believe in trying to be intellectually honest


:) I appreciate you efforts to 'prove' that Christianity is the wellspring of Democracy, Freedom, Liberty, Social Justice, Equality for Women, LGBT Marriage, and the End of War.
... But, I think it is a false connection.
 
:) I appreciate you efforts to 'prove' that Christianity is the wellspring of Democracy, Freedom, Liberty, Social Justice, Equality for Women, LGBT Marriage, and the End of War.
... But, I think it is a false connection.

Desperate. Cypress thinks atheistic philosophers are also supporting Christianity.
 
Desperate. Cypress thinks atheistic philosophers are also supporting Christianity.


I feel he is brainwashed. I doubt he will ever stop promoting 'Christianity'.
There's the 'Philosophy' part. Which I disagree with.
And then there's all the 'Magic & Occult' part. That I completely dismiss.

It's weird. We're in the 21st century, and there are people that buy into the primitive superstitions and 'magic' of the Past. Have you ever read the Jefferson Bible? TJ cut all that nonsense out and just studied the 'philosophical' part. At least that is reasonable.

"Why Thomas Jefferson Rewrote the Bible Without Jesus' Miracles and Resurrection"
https://www.history.com/news/thomas-jefferson-bible-religious-beliefs
 
I feel he is brainwashed. I doubt he will ever stop promoting 'Christianity'.
There's the 'Philosophy' part. Which I disagree with.
And then there's all the 'Magic & Occult' part. That I completely dismiss.

It's weird. We're in the 21st century, and there are people that buy into the primitive superstitions and 'magic' of the Past. Have you ever read the Jefferson Bible? TJ cut all that nonsense out and just studied the 'philosophical' part. At least that is reasonable.

"Why Thomas Jefferson Rewrote the Bible Without Jesus' Miracles and Resurrection"
https://www.history.com/news/thomas-jefferson-bible-religious-beliefs


Yes, familiar with the Jefferson Bible.
The question I ask to Christians is, why do you want Jesus to defy physical laws?
 
Yes, familiar with the Jefferson Bible.
The question I ask to Christians is, why do you want Jesus to defy physical laws?

:) You have more patience than I have. If a person really thinks a man can walk on water or turn water to wine, I place that person in the 'Space Cadet' category.
 
:) I appreciate you efforts to 'prove' that Christianity is the wellspring of Democracy, Freedom, Liberty, Social Justice, Equality for Women, LGBT Marriage, and the End of War.
... But, I think it is a false connection.

So you won't even look at data, like a world map.

You can search Wikipedia till the cows come home for examples of corruption and injustice in church institutions.

You could do the same thing for any human institution or ideology.

The question is not whether there is corruption and injustice in church institutions.

The question and premise has never been that Christianity created democracy.

A widespread perception among scholars is that democratic institutions slowly took root during and after the Protestant reformation. The social context of Protestantism was relatively unique when compared to the social contexts of other world religions.

By world standards of the 17th to 19th centuries, Protestant social context provides fertile ground for individualism, plurality of ideas, civic engagement, an explicit embrace of mercantile capitalism.

In contrast, Confucianism eschews individualism and teaches deference to authority.

Hinduism enforces a rigid social caste system.

Islam generally looks toward theocracy.

Buddhism and Daoism focus on transcendence and do not particularly look towards civic engagement.


If you would bother youself to look at s world map, you would see that liberal democracies and constitutional monarchies tracked with Protestant-majority countries....

Not in Confucian, Islamic, or Hindi civilizations.

Do you really think it is sheer coincidence democratic traditions germinated in a Protestant social context, rather than an Islamic, Hindi, or Confucian one?


It gives me no pride or joy to say that. I am not protestant, and I do not particularly care for Protestantism.

But I see no downsides to being intellectually honest in thinking about world history.
 
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So you won't even look at data, like a world map.

You can search Wikipedia till the cows come home for examples of corruption and injustice in church institutions.

You could do the same thing for any human institution or ideology.

The question is not whether there is corruption and injustice in church institutions.

The question and premise has never been that Christianity created democracy.

A widespread perception among scholars is that democratic institutions slowly took root during and after the Protestant reformation. The social context of Protestantism was relatively unique when compared to the social contexts of other world religions.

By world standards of the 17th to 19th centuries, Protestant social context provides fertile ground for individualism, plurality of ideas, civic engagement, an embrace of mercantile capitalism.

In contrast, Confucianism eschews individualism and teaches deference to authority.

Hinduism enforces a rigid social caste system.

Islam generally looks toward theocracy.

Buddhism and Daoism focus on transcendence and do not particularly look towards civic engagement.


If you would bother youself to look at s world map, you would see that liberal democracies and constitutional monarchies tracked with Protestant-majority countries....

Not in Confucian, Islamic, or Hindi circulations.

Do you really think it is sheer coincidence democratic traditions germinated in a Protestant social context, rather than an Islamic, Hindi, or Confucian one?


It gives me no pride or joy to say that. I am not protestant, and I do not particularly care for Protestantism.

But I see no downsides to being intellectually honest in thinking about world history.


Cypress: "But I see no downsides to being intellectually honest in thinking about world history."
Jack: Yeah. Me neither.

"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's". I'm not real sure how 'democratic' that is. More like, "Do what the fuck you're told and you can live another day". (Christianity, the perfect Slave Religion)
 
Cypress: "But I see no downsides to being intellectually honest in thinking about world history."
Jack: Yeah. Me neither.

"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's". I'm not real sure how 'democratic' that is. More like, "Do what the fuck you're told and you can live another day". (Christianity, the perfect Slave Religion)


Jews who were slaves to the Romans. I fail to see why I should identify with that.
 
Cypress: "But I see no downsides to being intellectually honest in thinking about world history."
Jack: Yeah. Me neither.

"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's". I'm not real sure how 'democratic' that is. More like, "Do what the fuck you're told and you can live another day". (Christianity, the perfect Slave Religion)

You keep jumping in your time machine to time travel back a ~thousand years or more to 1215 AD and 30 AD to complain about what some Christian said.

My posts have consistently and specially addressed the social impacts of the Protestant Reformation and the capitalism and democratic institutions which germinated in the shadow of the Reformation.
 
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