Atheism and pedophilia

[jacksonsprat22]

if you lack a belief in religion - you have a belief that some other explanation does exist

so yeah - a lack of belief in religion means you believe something else

I think this is a little deep for you though - offense meant

Try to articulate a thought cogently. Keep in mind, I know more on this topic than you. Say something not inane and sophomoric.

 

[zymurgy]

Try to articulate a thought cogently. Keep in mind, I know more on this topic than you. Say something not inane and sophomoric.

yawn

 

[jacksonsprat22]

yawn

Another troll. Boring indeed.

 

[zymurgy]

Another troll. Boring indeed.

yawn - this means you bring nothing to the table - your ideas interest high school/college age kids

 

[Into the Night]

It's only political because homophobes have made it political. Stop discriminating, stop fear-mongering, and it won't be political anymore.

Lie. Homosexuals have made it political. You can't assign these problems on another. I am not discriminating or fear mongering. YOU are.

 

[Into the Night]

I'm pretty observant.

Lie.

 

[jacksonsprat22]

yawn - this means you bring nothing to the table - your ideas interest high school/college age kids

bye troll

 

[Into the Night]

Homosexuality wasn't political until people started making laws against it.

No. It became political when homosexuals began requiring businesses to specifically cater to them, such as being force to make 'wedding' cakes for homosexuals 'couples', creating hiring laws favoring homosexuals, trying to redefine the term 'marriage', etc. It's the in your face attitude of the homosexuals.

That was the politicization of homosexuality, which homosexuals have been forced to fight against. If you want LGBT politics to stop existing, do your part by supporting LGBT rights.

BULLSHIT. They have NO MORE RIGHTS than anybody else!

Here's a fun fact. A lot of gay bars in the West have been going out of business because gay people no longer need to meet in the shadows.

BULLSHIT. A gay bar is not 'meeting in the shadows'!

The more acceptable homosexuality becomes, the less places gay people need that cater specifically to them. Same goes for politics. As homophobia dies out, so will the need for gay rights. Gay rights will simply be rights.

BULLSHIT. Homosexuals have NO MORE RIGHTS than anybody else!

No shit. A lot of gay people still face violent homophobia.

A lot of heterosexuals face violent heterophobia. What else is new?

Of course they're more likely to suffer traumatic events that lead to mental illness. The most common mental issues that LGBT people are more likely to have are suicidality, anxiety, and major depression. All three of those are a result of trauma.

BULLSHIT. Psychoquackery.

No, the LGBT community is not ok with child molesters like NAMBLA. This is a common claim that has never been backed up with any real study.

Gay people enjoy S&M? So what? You're hating on them for having a fun sex life?

S&M is not a fun sex life. It's warped.

The reason they have higher STD rates is because sex education is heterocentric. Of course if gay kids grow up knowing less about how to have safe sex, they're going to get more diseases than straight kids.

BULLSHIT. No school is singling out homosexuals in 'sex education' classes. Indiscriminate sexual activity has higher risk of disease, dumbass.

 

[zymurgy]

bye troll

bye

 

[Into the Night]

You're just saying that because you don't want to admit that opposition to gay rights comes from irrational fear. If you're homophobic, then you should be shamed.

BULLSHIT. Homosexuals have NO MORE RIGHTS than anybody else!

No, I'm not trying to end rational discussion.

Lie. Yes you are.

You can defend your stupid ideas if you want and I'll debunk them.

Bulverism fallacy.

But I'm not going to pretend that your ideas should be taken seriously.

Bulverism fallacy.

No, people like Mike Pence have made homosexuality into a political issue.

BULLSHIT. Homosexuals have made this a political issue, long before Pence came along. You can't assign your problems on someone else!

It's funny how Conservatives will try to limit rights for gay people, they'll say homophobic things, then when gay people fight back, Conservatives will claim they're not homophobic, they just wish gay people and Liberals weren't always trying to shove homosexuality in everyone's face.

It is homosexuals that are shoving their behavior in everyone's face! You can't assign your problems on someone else!

Either stop being a pussy and admit that you just don't want LGBT people to have the same civil liberties the rest of us have, or stop defending such policies, and LGBT issues won't be political.

BULLSHIT. Homosexuals have NO MORE RIGHTS than anybody else! You are not asking for equal rights. You are asking for special rights!

No argument presented. Bulverism. Bigotry. Inversions. Redefinitions. Assumption of victory fallacy. Denial of history.

 

[StoneByStone]

No, there is no fear of homosexuals involved here. Disagreeing with homosexuality is not the same as fearing homosexuals.

It is when the only reason to disagree with homosexuality is an irrational fear. That's why when pressed, people who claim they simply disagree with homosexuality never have a good reason. It's always a feels over reals argument like "it's gross" or "it's makes my god sad."

Opposition to homosexuality does not come from fear of homosexuals. It comes, in part, from opposition to sex acts that in principle do not produce anything (iow, are "unproductive"). This includes homosexuality, but it also includes things such as lesbianism and masturbation.

Bullshit. If that was true, there would also be an opposition to infertile couples having sex, married couples having protected sex, and so on.

Shaming homophobes does not in any way help them to overcome their phobia. Shaming alcoholics and homosexuals does not in any way help them to overcome their genetic predispositions.

I don't really care to help homophobes. I rather publicly shame them so that other people, who are unsure about homosexuality being ok, can see how ridiculous homophobia is. And this has been working. At one point same-sex relations were illegal. Look how far they've come today.

You've already tipped your hand. You are not participating in this discussion to "debunk" anything that I've said; you are simply here to hurl buzzwords/insults at me and to shame me for not "being on your team". That is anything BUT rational behavior. Peace N Safety (and others) are doing the same thing, but are just members of the "other team".

Present any argument you want and I'll debunk it. But I won't pretend that you're being rational or moral. I won't pretend you just have an acceptable different opinion.
Something I don't like about Liberals is they're way too tolerant of ideas that are objectionably terrible.

Homosexuals have always had the right to marry.

Not only is this not true, but homosexuality used to be illegal in a bunch of American states. And even in the states where it was legal, cops would regularly raid gay bars and beat up people.

If you ever run into such people (people who have a phobia of homosexuals, NOT people who simply happen to disagree with your views on homosexuality), maybe you should help them to overcome their phobia rather than shame them for having a phobia.

I actually have done this with mildly reasonable people. If someone is homophobic but doesn't want to limit LGBT rights, then sure, I usually help them to understand their fears are unfounded. But if it's someone who wants to take away LGBT rights, I find that they're too far gone, and I rather just publicly shame them since that works better. We're never going to fix people like Pence.

I'm not. I don't have a phobia of gay people. I treat them as I treat anybody else. I have a couple of gay coworkers (that I am aware of, anyway). I converse with them as I do my other coworkers. They don't parade their "gayness" and "gay pride" around everywhere either, as LGBTQLMNOP+ annoyingly does. They just go about living their lives as they see fit. I REALLYYYYYYY wish that LGBTQLMNOP+ would do the same...

So basically, gay people are alright as long as they just shut up and accept their role as second class citizens.
The "LGBTQLMNOP+" meme is really just a way to whitewash homophobia. It's saying homophobia in law or culture is fine, just ignore it.

 

[Into the Night]

The opening post included this:



What is morality outside of religion based on?

.

There is none, other than self preservation.

All religions define all other morals, even fundamentalist atheism (a religion). Even the religions of the Church of Global Warming and the Church of Green define morals.

 

[Into the Night]

cultivating trust for greater cooperative achievements.

Based on what?

 

[Into the Night]

I'll add in a little story about myself that loosely ties into the discussions that have occurred here, but turning it a little more into the direction of the whole "nature vs nurture" debate.

For most of my short just under 30 years of life, I have struggled with the quite rare issue of being an extremely picky eater. I'm not talking about the common childhood picky eating that goes away over time; I'm talking about a legit phobia of trying new foods that severely limited my palate to basically plain hamburgers and french fries. I would not eat a bun, I would not eat cheese, I would not eat any condiments, I would not eat hash browns, I would not eat mashed potatoes, I would not eat thick cut french fries, and etc...

I had my handful of "safe foods" and anything beyond that was a complete no-go, no matter how hard my parents tried to get me to eat other things. I am told by my family that I was not like that in my first very few years of life (of which I have no memories of), but for as long as I can remember (since 1st grade), I had been like that and being like that is all that I ever knew.

My phobia of trying new foods naturally led to intense "dinner table battles" between me and my parents, of which I do not have very fond memories of, and of which only made my new-food-phobia situation much worse rather than better. I always felt that I was just "made that way", that I had no control over it, and that no one understood me. I felt like a complete outcast from everyone else throughout much of my lifetime to date. Any sort of social gatherings with anyone (and even family holiday gatherings) were Hell-on-Earth for me, since social gatherings almost always involved food, and as an extremely picky eater due to my phobia of trying new foods, I was a complete misfit in that regard compared to everyone else. I've lived most of my almost 30 year life having to endure very negative and "put-me-down" comments from others regarding my phobia, but worst of all was when those comments would come from family members. There was nowhere I could turn to get away from it. I remember fervently praying to God as a child, asking why I was made like this, to please take away the pain, to make me "normal" like "everyone else", etc...

These sorts of negative experiences surrounding my phobia eventually led me down a path of depression and loneliness (throughout most of my 20s), which led into a path of self-harm (in my case, purposely inflicting knife-cuts into my left upper-arm as an attempt to alleviate the mental/emotional pain by causing physical pain), and when that stopped working, it eventually led me down a path to planning out my suicide. Thankfully, I did not follow through with the plan. After the wish to commit suicide fled my mind, it scared the living hell out of me, and I knew that I needed to make some drastic changes to flee from the road that my choices were taking me down.

Long story short, I made changes, which slowly helped, but the real help came just a few years ago when it finally clicked in my mind that I was not actually opposed to all of those foods themselves (some foods I was, but other foods I actually wasn't), but rather I was opposed to the horrific "dinner table battle" experiences that I endured as a young child and subsequently throughout my childhood. In other words, I finally recognized the irrationality of my phobia, and recognized that I was misapplying my repulsion of those "dinner table battles" to a supposed "repulsion of" the foods themselves.

Ever since that particular self-realization, my palate expanded multi-fold. I eat buns now, I eat cheese now, I eat some condiments now, I eat potatoes in any form now, I eat apples now (whole or dehydrated), I eat various other fruits now (watermelon, peaches, pears, grapes, etc.), I eat various other types of meat now (pork, chicken, ham, steak, turkey, hotdogs, etc.), I eat pizza and various types of pizzas now, and so on... These are all things that I never ate throughout most of my lifetime. I still basically only eat corn, peas, and lima beans for vegetables, but I'm just not a big vegetable fan and I think that's more due to my genetics than my nurturing.

So, when ITN made his comments about people overcoming their genetic weaknesses, the weaknesses of this world, and etc, I can personally attest for those comments as I've "lived it". Even though my particular story is more due to "nurture" than to "nature" (even though some "nature" is involved, as there are genetic predispositions to liking/hating certain foods), it shows that "nurture", especially concerning infants and young children, cannot be forgotten in these types of discussions either.

Even though my experiences with that phobia were very rough to say the least, I've come out of it with knowledge and strength. I know that making the dinner table into a battlefield is a very bad thing to do to a child. I know that shaming people due to their phobias does NOT help them to overcome said phobias. I know that praying to God should be about HIS will for me and the world, rather than MY will for me and the world.

I have progressed. I have made some progress in my short life, to date. I am still in the process of progressing, and I still have some unproductive behaviors in my life that I need to address and make productive. I still have behaviors in my life that are not bearing any spiritual fruit. This phobia of mine, however, has since been overcome, and is now productively bearing fruit for God via providing knowledge and help to others who suffer with similar issues/phobias/etc.

Shaming people for their phobias does nothing to help them; it does nothing productive; it does nothing to bear spiritual fruit.

Quite right. I am not shaming homosexual behavior. I am simply pointing out that homosexuals have made their behavior political, in order to gain special rights (not equal rights), to even try to redefine 'marriage', and to shove their personal habits in everyone's faces. I am also simply pointing out that homosexual behavior is incapable of producing offspring.

As far as additional diseases it 'brings', that is due to indiscriminate sexual behavior, not necessarily due to homosexual behavior. Disease risk increases with indiscriminate sex of any kind.

 

[Into the Night]

I quoted what he said - sorry you struggle to keep up

To believe "there is no God" is to likewise hold a religious belief.

Yes - that is a belief - and it even requires faith but it does not require religion - hence it is not a religious belief


any more sophomorics you want to throw my way?

This is mostly correct. You will find, however, that simply not taking a stand either way on whether there is a god or not is NOT a religion. It is not an argument at all. It is the only viewpoint that is NO viewpoint about the matter. Some people call this 'atheism' (without theology). There is quite a difference between that and the 'atheists' that are really trying to prove the circular argument that there is no god or gods.

A circular argument by itself is not a fallacy, but trying to prove one is. This is what a fundamentalist does. The other name for the circular argument is 'faith', or the argument of faith. I call 'atheists' that try to prove there is no god or gods 'fundamental atheists' to differentiate the two viewpoints. Most atheists are fundamentalists. I can count on one hand the number of atheists that are truly making no argument either way, and are even open to the possibility that there MIGHT be a god or gods, but simply don't accept any religion yet, or try to define any god or gods.

 

[Into the Night]

Lack of belief is not belief. It would be like saying since I don't live in France my beliefs are based on not living there.

'Lack of belief' is in and of itself a belief. You can't turn a belief into an utter void.
It is not at all like the special pleading you are attempting concerning living in France.

 

[Into the Night]

Try to articulate a thought cogently. Keep in mind, I know more on this topic than you. Say something not inane and sophomoric.

No, you don't. You are making an irrational argument. You are denying your own argument, then blaming zymurgy for being inane and sophomoric (an insult fallacy).

A lack of belief in a god or gods is in and of itself a belief. There is no such thing as an utter 'lack of belief'. That is an incomplete argument (a fallacy), forming a void argument (another fallacy).

 

[jacksonsprat22]

'Lack of belief' is in and of itself a belief. You can't turn a belief into an utter void.
It is not at all like the special pleading you are attempting concerning living in France.

This is the analogy. People who live in France love their country and cannot imagine living anywhere else. God believers cannot imagine someone not 'living' in God. People in France think you must not want to live there the same way God believers think you must oppose God.

Just because I do not live in France, or have God belief, does not mean my beliefs are based on that absence.

 

[jacksonsprat22]

No, you don't. You are making an irrational argument. You are denying your own argument, then blaming zymurgy for being inane and sophomoric (an insult fallacy).

A lack of belief in a god or gods is in and of itself a belief. There is no such thing as an utter 'lack of belief'. That is an incomplete argument (a fallacy), forming a void argument (another fallacy).

I don't believe in Hinduism. That does not mean I oppose Hinduism and structure my beliefs around that negation.

 

[Into the Night]

It is when the only reason to disagree with homosexuality is an irrational fear.

The fear is a rational one. I have already stated what it is based upon. Denial of logic.

That's why when pressed, people who claim they simply disagree with homosexuality never have a good reason. It's always a feels over reals argument like "it's gross" or "it's makes my god sad."

Bigotry. You don't get to speak for everyone. You only get to speak for you.

Bullshit. If that was true, there would also be an opposition to infertile couples having sex, married couples having protected sex, and so on.

There is opposition to couples using birth control methods, just as there is opposition to homosexual activity. Infertile couples having sex can produce no offspring. Nothing illegal about them, and they aren't trying to be in your face like homosexuals (and you) are.

I don't really care to help homophobes.

You actually ARE helping homophobes. You are doing it by shoving your personal behaviors in people's faces.

I rather publicly shame them so that other people, who are unsure about homosexuality being ok, can see how ridiculous homophobia is. And this has been working. At one point same-sex relations were illegal. Look how far they've come today.

Such laws were always illegal in and of themselves. Implementing them violates the Constitution of the United States and the constitutions of most States.

Present any argument you want and I'll debunk it.

You have debunked nothing. Assumption of victory fallacy.

But I won't pretend that you're being rational or moral.

Bulverism fallacy.

I won't pretend you just have an acceptable different opinion.

Bulverism fallacy.

Something I don't like about Liberals is they're way too tolerant of ideas that are objectionably terrible.

I quite agree. I do not agree with socialism, senseless violence, or anyone that supports it.

Not only is this not true, but homosexuality used to be illegal in a bunch of American states.

You are repeating yourself. I've already addressed this above.

And even in the states where it was legal, cops would regularly raid gay bars and beat up people.

I think you are making shit up.

If someone is homophobic but doesn't want to limit LGBT rights, then sure, I usually help them to understand their fears are unfounded. But if it's someone who wants to take away LGBT rights, I find that they're too far gone, and I rather just publicly shame them since that works better. We're never going to fix people like Pence.

BULLSHIT. Homosexuals have NO MORE RIGHTS than anybody else! Stop trying label special rights as 'equal rights'.

So basically, gay people are alright as long as they just shut up and accept their role as second class citizens.

BULLSHIT. No one needs to know your personal behavior. It is YOU that keeps bringing it up and shoving it in people's faces, all in the name of special rights (not equal rights).

The "LGBTQLMNOP+" meme is really just a way to whitewash homophobia. It's saying homophobia in law or culture is fine, just ignore it.

You keep shoving it in people's faces. They can't ignore it because of YOU and other homosexuals like YOU.