Auto industry: to bail or not to bail

Yeah, many of us hate economic systems that have been tried over and over and over and have done nothing but spread poverty and starvation. Silly us.

Yes, workers will have to find new jobs, you guys don't see all the other jobs in efficient fields that will never get created because of these bailouts. What about those people?
 
Darla said:
if it were to go the way you lay out - bailing them out and back into the same old same old, making gas guzzlers, then i'd say let them fail.

that is not obama's plan, and until i see good reason to do otherwise, i'm going to believe he means what he says.
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I'll be frank, I want to see companies like Zap, Miles Automotive, and Tomberlin Group become household names. These small auto-makers need a shift in the market in order to compete with one another. If GM survives because of government intervention rather than market force, these guys get bought out or go under.
 
Obfuscate said:
Yeah, many of us hate economic systems that have been tried over and over and over and have done nothing but spread poverty and starvation. Silly us.

Yes, workers will have to find new jobs, you guys don't see all the other jobs in efficient fields that will never get created because of these bailouts. What about those people?
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What the hell are you talking about? Were these fields booming BEFORE the bank bailouts? Has there been any sign that these fields were going to boom anytime in the next few years?

This economic mess is not going to be fixed over night. The absolute LAST thing we need to do is cause such a huge collapse.
 
Solitary said:
What the hell are you talking about? Were these fields booming BEFORE the bank bailouts? Has there been any sign that these fields were going to boom anytime in the next few years?

This economic mess is not going to be fixed over night. The absolute LAST thing we need to do is cause such a huge collapse.
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When big name companies control the market, they will do all they can to keep customers away from even knowing about new technologies that make their cars look like crap. These jobs won't Boom because big money always wins, even when they lose, as will be the case when they bail GM out.
 
Solitary said:
What the hell are you talking about? Were these fields booming BEFORE the bank bailouts? Has there been any sign that these fields were going to boom anytime in the next few years?

This economic mess is not going to be fixed over night. The absolute LAST thing we need to do is cause such a huge collapse.
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The money has to be paid back WITH INTEREST dumbshit, but I'm sure the Free Lunch economists will talk about multipliers ect. You are causing the collapse by further distorting the price system. You explain how further distorting the price systems will help long run. There was a credit bubble, we need to deleverage not prop up the ones holding the economy down.
 
Obfuscate said:
The money has to be paid back WITH INTEREST dumbshit, but I'm sure the Free Lunch economists will talk about multipliers ect. You are causing the collapse by further distorting the price system. You explain how further distorting the price systems will help long run. There was a credit bubble, we need to deleverage not prop up the ones holding the economy down.
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How many employees do the big three auto makes have? Care to see them all unemployed? Want to try and figure out what that would cost us? And all the retirees?

Yes, the money will have to be paid back with interest. But we would not pay it all in the next few years, as we would have to pay for their collapse.

The question is not whether you like socialism or not, its about whether the US economy can survive the collapse of the big three auto makers.
 
Superfreak said:
that ISN'T what he suggested goofball. He stated that IF we bail out the companies, the EXECUTIVES HAVE TO GO. They cannot be allowed to continue leading the company that they destroyed. He is suggesting that fresh blood take over the reigns IF a bailout occurs.
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It's okay SF, often they read what they want into my statements rather than actually reading and comprehending what I state. Their active imaginations make them believe that they are doing a good job making their points. Sometimes you just have to move on rather than keep restating the same position.

Since nobody had asked and the conversation wasn't progressing I moved on to what I thought a better option than a direct takeover bid would be. Instead of attempting to takeover the company and run it from the position of utter ignorance that is the government, I think it would be better to break up the production lines and sell to companies with better business plans and a direction that actually has a remote connection to a future that will be here.

Currently it appears that everybody in this conversation has a dictionary that doesn't include that word, or the past. Only the present counts, and the only "place" I know that had success with that was Oceania.
 
Obfuscate said:
It will survive just fine. Read more on Capitalism and Creative Destruction:

"process of industrial mutation that incessantly revolutionizes the economic structure from within, incessantly destroying the old one, incessantly creating a new one."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/creativedestruction.asp
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At what cost?

There are ways of allowing for failure and creative destruction and preventing the moral hazard associated with the bailout without destroying not just the shitty big companies but the towns, neighborhoods, cities, states and related entities that would be dragged down as part of the "creative destruction."
 
Obfuscate said:
It will survive just fine. Read more on Capitalism and Creative Destruction:

"process of industrial mutation that incessantly revolutionizes the economic structure from within, incessantly destroying the old one, incessantly creating a new one."

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/c/creativedestruction.asp
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You're coming from a theoretical world. I'm thinking about the real one, that's headed for a long, deep recession as it is, where possibly as many as 1 in 10 jobs is tied into the auto industry in some way.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that it would be less expensive for Americans NOT to bail out the big 3.
 
Remember this thread in 2 years when the economy is that much worse off and we have 3-5 Trillion more in debt because we tried to trick the system and ignored how Capitalism works. A group of suits has NEVER been able to outsmart the Capitalist model. I don't trust they have just figured it out. You can go ahead if you choose, just prepare to be wrong at the expense of the Nation.
 
Onceler said:
You're coming from a theoretical world. I'm thinking about the real one, that's headed for a long, deep recession as it is, where possibly as many as 1 in 10 jobs is tied into the auto industry in some way.

I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that it would be less expensive for Americans NOT to bail out the big 3.
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Do you think that even with bailout money, that GM won't get rid of it's employees? They need to retool as well, so how many people are going to lose their jobs due to new demand? I think, honestly, a bailout will just prop them up for a short time, before the inevitable happens.
 
ib1yysguy said:
We should nationalize them.
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Basically, that's the only way we keep all the jobs with GM, and allow them to retool. It's going to cost GM way too much to change themselves, so they are going to just try to survive and ask for money when it gets near the end of the line again. Government would have to put so much stipulation on the bailout money to make it work that they basically would be running GM themselves for a couple years.
 
Has anyone seen topper in a while. I wonder if he bailed out a window of a high rise with what I have been paying for gas lately. Paid $1.85/gal for regular unleaded yesterday.
 
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