Auto industry: to bail or not to bail

leaningright said:
Has anyone seen topper in a while. I wonder if he bailed out a window of a high rise with what I have been paying for gas lately. Paid $1.85/gal for regular unleaded yesterday.
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usc said he did jump...but his office is on the first floor so he is laid up with a broken leg now.
 
Onceler said:
I've gotta admit, this is one where I see strong arguments on both sides. On the one hand, what would the gov't be saying by essentially rewarding bad management?

On the other, letting the big 3 wither would likely end up costing our economy much more than any bailout package they put together. There are so many jobs both in & outside of the industry that rely on those companies; it's hard to imagine the pain that their collapse would cause.

I say bail.
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No one is bailing out the auto "industry", the Dems are just talking about bailing out American auto companies, Japanese ones and others (which have plenty of plants and jobs in manufacturing and sales as well in America) would receive nothing.

The only reason the Dems are doing this is not to "help" the economy but rather because the big 3 are all unionized and they would lose union funding and power.

They should not bail them out, whatever happened to all their talk about corporate welfare being wrong?
 
Dano,

I tend to agree with the big O (onceler) on this one. With the economy being as fragile as it is can we really afford thousands if not hundreds of thousands of unemployed workers now from auto plants.
 
Robdawg said:
Dano,

I tend to agree with the big O (onceler) on this one. With the economy being as fragile as it is can we really afford thousands if not hundreds of thousands of unemployed workers now from auto plants.
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Is the (auto) market in trouble? No.
Just the big 3 are.
Why? Because they make product that is less in demand and because they have unfunded pension liabilities stemming from them being negotiated by unions ages ago.

Were they to fail (and realistically only 1 would fail and the other 2 would eat a lot of the "failure's" domestic market share), then as the auto market is healthy enough, customers would buy elsewhere and jobs would be created there.

Don't you drive a german car? If you want to save their jobs then buy one of the Big 3's cars. You won't because you'd rather not spend your money on them so WHY would you spend your tax money on them?

"There can be no freedom without freedom to fail." – Eric Hoffer (1902-1983), The Ordeal of Change, 1964
 
KingCondanomation said:
Is the (auto) market in trouble? No.
Just the big 3 are.
Why? Because they make product that is less in demand and because they have unfunded pension liabilities stemming from them being negotiated by unions ages ago.

Were they to fail (and realistically only 1 would fail and the other 2 would eat a lot of the "failure's" domestic market share), then as the auto market is healthy enough, customers would buy elsewhere and jobs would be created there.

Don't you drive a german car? If you want to save their jobs then buy one of the Big 3's cars. You won't because you'd rather not spend your money on them so WHY would you spend your tax money on them?

"There can be no freedom without freedom to fail." – Eric Hoffer (1902-1983), The Ordeal of Change, 1964
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Dano, you are correct, i drive an Audi. I like German cars, the car i had previously was a volkswagen. I just like german engineering. I wont b/c I think American cars are pieces of shit that break down every 5 minutes. sorry its just ture. but I do like keeping american jobs alive and well.
 
Obfuscate said:
Because failure is just as important as success in a Capitalistic system. It's called Creative Destruction. Bailouts are such a moral hazard and all you'll get is more distortions in the price system, more poor decisions and more bailouts until the economic system is so distorted we have a total collapse of the dollar and confidence. Filthy Fucking Socialist you deserve the poverty you'll end up getting.
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But Obf if we let one or two of them fail we'll have a domesticate monopoly. Moral hazard even matters in real economics. That's more of a conservative exageration than an economic reality. And your apeal to consequences is idiotic just like your crappy economic theories.
 
Obfuscate said:
Remember this thread in 2 years when the economy is that much worse off and we have 3-5 Trillion more in debt because we tried to trick the system and ignored how Capitalism works. A group of suits has NEVER been able to outsmart the Capitalist model. I don't trust they have just figured it out. You can go ahead if you choose, just prepare to be wrong at the expense of the Nation.
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Obf, what if the free market is doing just fine in 2 years?

I'll just assume it won't have been because of pumping money into the economy right now. But I will bring this thread back up.
 
Robdawg said:
Dano, you are correct, i drive an Audi. I like German cars, the car i had previously was a volkswagen. I just like german engineering. I wont b/c I think American cars are pieces of shit that break down every 5 minutes. sorry its just ture. but I do like keeping american jobs alive and well.
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Here are some "American jobs":
http://www.ohio.honda.com/

Again, foreign car companies employ people in manufacturing, sales and marketing right in America. England, Holland, Denmark, Belgium all have virtually no domestic car maker and their economies are fine and have plenty of jobs.

Trust me on this Rob, there is one reason and one reason only the Dems are trying to bailout Detroit and that is saving unionized jobs. You said yourself that American made cars have quality issues, a big reason for that is unions where they don't have to worry about quality as much because it's harder for them to be let go like you and I if they have poor job performance.

Don't reward that and definetely not with yet more debt.
 
KingCondanomation said:
Again, foreign car companies employ people in manufacturing, sales and marketing right in America. England, Holland, Denmark, Belgium all have virtually no domestic car maker and their economies are fine and have plenty of jobs.
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They are all nearly 1/10th our size though (besides the UK). And since none of them have ever had carmaking as a major industry they've developed into other areas. Letting a car company collapse in America would just create chaos and would cost more in the long run than bailing it out and forcing it to get off of the stupid track it's on right now.
 
KingCondanomation said:
Trust me on this Rob, there is one reason and one reason only the Dems are trying to bailout Detroit and that is saving unionized jobs. You said yourself that American made cars have quality issues, a big reason for that is unions where they don't have to worry about quality as much because it's harder for them to be let go like you and I if they have poor job performance.

Don't reward that and definetely not with yet more debt.
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Conservative horseshit.

People work at jobs. No one enjoys it. Making it so that they get treated like shit and don't get paid shit doesn't make them work any better. Union employees work just as well as ununionized.
 
KingCondanomation said:
Yeah imagine a world where people actually were free to buy what they decided was better value for the money they earn - how terrible.
Foreign carmakers build their cars here, the jobs are here.
No bailout.
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Yeah but their executives don't live here. They aren't unionized so the pay is way lower. That is several billion dollars worth of tax revenue down the drain, along with all their spending. That money instead goes to a foreign nation.
 
Watermark said:
Yeah but their executives don't live here.
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So? Are you arguing about the benefit of peoples jobs or a tiny handful of high executives?

Watermark said:
They aren't unionized so the pay is way lower.
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Sure about that are you? Not just another Waterfact you pulled out of your ass? Oh lookat that, you're wrong:
"Toyota and GM workers earn about the same hourly wages."
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-10-09-auto-exec-pay_N.htm

Again the difference is in an unaffordable pension negotiated ages ago that is a major source of the problem they are in.

Watermark said:
That is several billion dollars worth of tax revenue down the drain, along with all their spending. That money instead goes to a foreign nation.
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Sigh. I was right, you never really did understand what you were talking about when you were pretending to be a Libertarian and arguing in favor of free trade. There are many countries that have American businesses in them (ie: McDonalds, KFC, GE, Walmart, and even GM), some money from them goes to executives in the US so it balances out and benefits all.

Look kid, I am through being patient with you and trying to teach you, you are consumed with your ideological goal now to the point where you are willing to lie and make up shit on the fly to support your leftwing views. You are a lost cause. At the end of the day, you've never paid taxes, worked a real job, paid bills, or even got far enough out of your state to actually see what the Liberalism you love in America looks like. You have no life experience and thus lack any ability to quantify the whimsical world you live in of Liberalism being good.
 
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