Damn

Obfuscate said:
Minimum Wage have always proven to be a bad policy that hurts low skilled workers most. Child labor laws only came about because free markets had already allowed a standard of living high enough to allow the fact that children didn't need to work so thier family could eat like they had to in the agricutural days and early in the industrial revolution. You mean OSHA laws that are bought by private interests and insure that the cost of quality care is so high that most disabled are get worse care {I worked for the handicap home in collage}. Monopoly laws I already covered and even Adam Smith stood for Anti Trust.
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It's obvious why we don't belong on the same side of the political fence .. nor in fact, the same side of the spiritual divide.

States with minumum wages higher than the federal standard have prospored better than those that don't. That tired argument has been put to bed by the facts.

Obviously, you don't know the history of child labor laws. What you offered as its history sounds absolutely ridiculous.

Nor does it appear that you know the history, intent, or results of OSHA requirements.

Frankly, I have no desire to see myself so self-centered and devoid of spirituality and conscience that I would ever consider money and profit more important than humanity.
 
Yeah, but most of the states with higher than federal minimum wages are in the NE, where they're generally rich anyway. Mississippi considered raising the minimum wage but Barbour said he'd veto it. It's just that for some odd reason most poor states are conservative and conservatives don't like the minimum wage very much. It seems kind of contradictory, but thats how it works since Reagan. Where does most of the opposition against raising the taxes on the uber-rich come from? The middle class. Nonsensical. Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, they are very liberal.

The minimum wage doesn't have nearly enough large enough of an effect on the economy to make an economy like Massachusettes or Connecticuts crash. It just isn't a very big deal, and it keeps people from being in the poorhouse. I don't see how you could oppose such obvious legislation.
 
States with Minimum Wages above the Federal Level have had Faster Small Business and Retail Job Growth

excerpt ---

Conclusions

A growing body of both empirical and theoretical work has called into question the long-held prediction that a higher minimum wage will reduce the number of jobs.

A more nuanced model of how the economy operates has superceded the simplistic supply and demand theoretical model that is the basis for this prediction. This more sophisticated labor market model suggests that employers are likely to respond to a wage increase by improving the skills of their workers and becoming more efficient, and that slightly higher wages would be offset by savings from reduced turnover and higher productivity.

Recent empirical evidence supports this new theoretical understanding. As the 1999 Economic Report of the President indicated, studies of the 1996 and 1997 federal minimum wage increases found that there were no adverse employment effects.

In the eight and a half years since the federal minimum wage was last increased, several states have enacted and maintained state minimum wage levels above the federal $5.15 hourly minimum.

It is now possible to make job growth comparisons over several years between a set of states that have had higher minimum wages than the federal level for a number of years and the remaining states where the $5.15 federal minimum wage has prevailed for most of the period since 1997. This report makes such comparisons, for employment in all industries together and for the retail trade industry, the lowest-wage industry and thus the industry most likely to be affected by the minimum wage. The results clearly point toward no adverse employment effects in the higher minimum wage states between January 1998 and January 2006. In fact, the findings show that job growth in the higher minimum wage states surpassed that in the remaining states.

A detailed comparison in New York showed that retail employment grew faster than employment as a whole after that state’s minimum wage increase in 2005. It is sometimes suggested that small businesses are the most vulnerable to minimum wage increases. Some observers contend that small businesses that are labor intensive and that largely employ low-wage workers will experience sharp cost increases, leading them to reduce employment levels. This report also examined the trends in employment and total payroll for small businesses employing fewer than 50 workers in the higher minimum wage states compared to the remaining states. For the 1998 to 2003 period for which analysis is possible using the latest Commerce Department data, employment and payroll growth in the higher minimum wage states consistently performed better than in the remaining states.

This analysis should further call into question notions that an increase in the minimum wage will hurt small businesses overall or employment in small businesses in the aggregate.

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cach...han+federal+standard&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=9&gl=us

CHANGE really is necessary in the US .. change away from the mind-fuck notions of the past and change into what is best for the people of this nation, not just corporations.
 
Pricing out low skilled workers doesn't help low skilled workers, how many John Bates medal winners and Noble Laurents have to say it before the general public understands? Best case scenario it raises prices on consumers which moves capital from it's most efficient use and distorts the price system. I'd love to hear BAC explain his thoughts for once rather than catch phrase assumption nonsense. That article doesn't take anything into perspective, it's like saying that the last 15-20 years or whatever it was when they didn't raise the minimum wage and we had the fastest growth in human history and growth that raised living standards more than any other period as "proof" minimum wage laws hurt the economy.
 
Obfuscate said:
Pricing out low skilled workers doesn't help low skilled workers, how many John Bates medal winners and Noble Laurents have to say it before the general public understands? Best case scenario it raises prices on consumers which moves capital from it's most efficient use and distorts the price system. I'd love to hear BAC explain his thoughts for once rather than catch phrase assumption nonsense. That article doesn't take anything into perspective, it's like saying that the last 15-20 years or whatever it was when they didn't raise the minimum wage and we had the fastest growth in human history and growth that raised living standards more than any other period as "proof" minimum wage laws hurt the economy.
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I've demonstrated that your flawed theory is completely baseless.

Unless you have something to offer that disproves the conclusions of facts about minimum wages that I've offered .. I'll conclude that the debate over the issue is over.

Like most libertarians, all you have are myopic visions founded on delusion and absolutely no real world application.

Do you have something that disproves that states with higher minimum wages have prospored better than those that do not?
 
Again nothing but assumptions and catch phrases from BAC.

Do you have anything that "disproves" that we had the best economy in the history of mankind without raising minimum wage? I know economic comprehension is not your cup of tea you should stick to things you understand.
 
Obfuscate said:
Pricing out low skilled workers doesn't help low skilled workers, how many John Bates medal winners and Noble Laurents have to say it before the general public understands? Best case scenario it raises prices on consumers which moves capital from it's most efficient use and distorts the price system. I'd love to hear BAC explain his thoughts for once rather than catch phrase assumption nonsense. That article doesn't take anything into perspective, it's like saying that the last 15-20 years or whatever it was when they didn't raise the minimum wage and we had the fastest growth in human history and growth that raised living standards more than any other period as "proof" minimum wage laws hurt the economy.
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They still have to be employed. It prevents capital abuses. It's insurance. The market price is generally about that low in any case.
 
"The idea that minimum wage legislation is an anti-poverty tool is simply sheer nonsense. Were it an anti-poverty weapon, we might save loads of foreign aid expenditures simply by advising legislators in the world's poorest countries, such as Haiti, Bangladesh and Ethiopia, to legislate higher minimum wages. Even applied to the United States, there's little evidence suggesting that increases in the minimum wage help the poor."

Walter Williams
 
Obfuscate said:
Again nothing but assumptions and catch phrases from BAC.

Do you have anything that "disproves" that we had the best economy in the history of mankind without raising minimum wage? I know economic comprehension is not your cup of tea you should stick to things you understand.
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Whether its due to inability or ignorance, you don't seem quite up to the skills required for debate.

I posted a study by the Fiscal Policy Institute .. which is a long ass way from "assumptions and catch phrases" and you've posted nothing that challenges their conclusions .. which was in fact what you should have done if you possess the capacity to debate.

All you've posted is chest-thumping about how brilliant you are without actually demonstrating any evidence of that brilliance.

I repeat . for the last time .. do you have any evidence that states with higher minuimum wages than the federal standard did not prosper better than those which did not?

If you are the brilliant economist you think you are then surely you can post evidence, not unfounded chest-thumping.
 
Obfuscate said:
"The idea that minimum wage legislation is an anti-poverty tool is simply sheer nonsense. Were it an anti-poverty weapon, we might save loads of foreign aid expenditures simply by advising legislators in the world's poorest countries, such as Haiti, Bangladesh and Ethiopia, to legislate higher minimum wages. Even applied to the United States, there's little evidence suggesting that increases in the minimum wage help the poor."

Walter Williams
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That's just more bullshit from Williams, another libertarian myopic.

I posted evidence that the minimum wage helped the poor by creating better jobs, trainingm and opportunity.

Still waiting on counter evidence.
 
How many Nobel Laurents do you need? The main school of economics, neo-classical economics doesn't believe it helps the poor and distorst prices. Why not poor countries just raise thier minimum wage? PLEASE explain how minimum wage will help them, you know so much about it, please don't dodge this I want your expertise not a one liner. You can't compare some of the already richest states vs poorer states and claim victory. It's called comprehension. Plus I already explained that example is as loose an explanation that it's a good, as mine that we had the greatest boom in economic history that raised living standads from top to bottom better than any period in history without raising minimum wage.
 
"2000 survey by Dan Fuller and Doris Geide-Stevenson reports that of a sample of 308 American Economic Association economists, 45.6% fully agreed with the statement, "a minimum wage increases unemployment among young and unskilled workers", 27.9% partially agreed, and 26.5% disagreed"

Fuller, Dan and Doris Geide-Stevenson (2003): Consensus Among Economists: Revisited, in: Journal of Economic Review, Vol. 34, No. 4, Seite 369-387
 
"According to the Mackinac Center for Public Policy[46], the passage of the first Federal mandated minimum wage in the United States in 1938 led to an estimated 500,000 blacks losing their jobs via replacement by higher skilled and more educated white laborers"
 
Obfuscate said:
How many Nobel Laurents do you need? The main school of economics, neo-classical economics doesn't believe it helps the poor and distorst prices. Why not poor countries just raise thier minimum wage? PLEASE explain how minimum wage will help them, you know so much about it, please don't dodge this I want your expertise not a one liner. You can't compare some of the already richest states vs poorer states and claim victory. It's called comprehension. Plus I already explained that example is as loose an explanation that it's a good, as mine that we had the greatest boom in economic history that raised living standads from top to bottom better than any period in history without raising minimum wage.
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Economists also believe fiat currency is a good idea. They're shils for the fascist military industrial complex.


As for third world nations, they would be better off if the world bank IMF etceteras just left them alone, but no economists will tell the truth about that either.
 
Alot of economists think we should have money backed in gold or some commodity, the problem with gold is deflation and 100% gold dollar can't fight it. A little inflation IS better than deflation because buisness and households can easier adjust to that than deflation. The problem is, like any time you get politics involved they will not just use it it the case of deflation they use it to fund wars and those lovley social programs Cypress and BAC like and not many economist besides the Socialists think thats a good idea.

Also, Classical economist get very angry at the IMF when they bail out countries in debt because it's a "moral hazard" even Greenspan talks about it in his new book which I'm just about to finish up.
 
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