defining the atheist life....

Concart said:
: a person who does not believe in the existence of a god or any gods : one who subscribes to or advocates atheism

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheist

:a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

(source: Oxford Languages)

The dictionary definitions clearly make the distinction between someone who disbelieves and someone who lacks belief. I fall in the latter category.
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Doesn't "disbelieve" mean being unable to believe?
 
Frank Apisa said:
And if we were speaking Greek or if the word "atheist" came to us from the Greek...that would mean something.

But we are not speaking Greek...and the word did not come to us from the Greek. It came to us from the French...and means "a" (without) + "theos" (a god)...and means to be without a god.
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Perhaps I do not understand the issue being debated. But ancient Greeks used the word "atheism." Of course it meant something specific in context.

But on etymology, "atheism" is clearly a greek word.
 
AProudLefty said:
And the answer is still the same - it's impossible.
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What is it with you, Lefty? You have always seemed to be quite logical and intelligent in the past. But this is turning you inside out.

How can you possibly insist it is impossible for someone to "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one????

I personally know dozens of people who "believe" that...and I suspect that you "believe" it also.

In any case, YOU undoubtedly know dozens of people who "believe" that also.



Wrong about what?
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Are you really going to stoop to this kind of bullshit?

You wrote: "How can the term "atheist" in ANY language come BEFORE the term "theist" (or "gods") in ANY language?"

The solid inference is that it cannot happen.

BUT IT DID HAPPEN...and I have cited evidence for it happening.


Let me ask you a question. If someone comes up to you and tells you that he saw a Bigfoot. What do you do or say?
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I'd ask him/her if he/she had seen any good movies lately...and get the subject changed.
 
BidenPresident said:
Perhaps I do not understand the issue being debated. But ancient Greeks used the word "atheism." Of course it meant something specific in context.

But on etymology, "atheism" is clearly a greek word.
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Actually...it isn't. It is a French derivative...which the French derived from the Greek.

And it clearly meant...to be WITHOUT a god...NOT without a "belief" in a god.
 
Imagine being both omniscient and omnipotent, but as a creator, this is the best world with which you could bother to come up.

Believers actually worship a god that obviously must have mailed it in!

If it's indeed both omniscient and omnipotent, and this is the world that it created, then the most simple of logic tells us that it certainly, as a god, wasn't all-loving as well.

This very obvious observation proves beyond any doubt, reasonable or otherwise, that religious people are, for whatever reason, cultural or otherwise,
logic deficient. We don't need to be trusting them for leadership.
 
Frank Apisa said:
What is it with you, Lefty? You have always seemed to be quite logical and intelligent in the past. But this is turning you inside out.
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You're the one who seems to be struggling with this, not me. "Atheism" has always meant "without belief in God/gods". It's quite simple.

How can you possibly insist it is impossible for someone to "believe" it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one????
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Because how do you measure the likelihood of something when you have NO information of said something?

Sure anyone can believe that it's more likely that God/gods doesn't exist. But that doesn't make them atheists based on that, does it? That would be more in the realm of agnostic atheism.

I personally know dozens of people who "believe" that.

In any case, YOU undoubtedly know dozens of people who "believe" that also.
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Yes I do. People have various opinions/beliefs about God/gods.

Are you really going to stoop to this kind of bullshit?

You wrote: "How can the term "atheist" in ANY language come BEFORE the term "theist" (or "gods") in ANY language?"

The solid inference is that it cannot happen.

BUT IT DID HAPPEN...and I have cited evidence for it happening.
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AGAIN, in order for atheists/agnostics to exist, "God" or "gods" HAVE to be invented BEFORE. If claims that God/gods exist have not been made, then nobody would really be atheists/agnostics, would there?

I'd ask him/her if he/she had seen any good movies lately...and get the subject changed.
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Then, according to you, you have an ACTIVE BELIEF that Bigfoot doesn't exist.
 
AProudLefty said:
Doesn't "disbelieve" mean being unable to believe?
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I believe it is. To me, that's different than lacking belief. It's a pretty razor thin distinction, but in this case, probably an important one. This is the simplest way I can sum this up. First one has to agree on what the definition of 'God' is, for me that's a simple concept, it is an entity that exists outside of the natural world, and that is not subject to laws of the natural world. In other words, 'God' is supernatural. God can ignore the laws of physics, or just change them at a whim.

If I accept that definition, then my position is that there is no evidence that such an entity exists. No event has occurred, no object exists that cannot be explained by science. I do not believe that will ever change. Anything that appears supernatural is just something we can't explain yet because our understanding of the natural world is so incredibly limited.

So at least for me, it is not being 'unable' to believe. It means that I have no reason to believe. The idea of God is redundant, science explains everything eventually. God is simply man indulging his ego. I don't find it necessary or important. I don't spend a lot of time talking about it or even thinking about it. So I lack belief. That's it.
 
Concart said:
I believe it is. To me, that's different than lacking belief. It's a pretty razor thin distinction, but in this case, probably an important one. This is the simplest way I can sum this up. First one has to agree on what the definition of 'God' is, for me that's a simple concept, it is an entity that exists outside of the natural world, and that is not subject to laws of the natural world. In other words, 'God' is supernatural. God can ignore the laws of physics, or just change them at a whim.

If I accept that definition, then my position is that there is no evidence that such an entity exists. No event has occurred, no object exists that cannot be explained by science. I do not believe that will ever change. Anything that appears supernatural is just something we can't explain yet because our understanding of the natural world is so incredibly limited.

So at least for me, it is not being 'unable' to believe. It means that I have no reason to believe. The idea of God is redundant, science explains everything eventually. God is simply man indulging his ego. I don't find it necessary or important. I don't spend a lot of time talking about it or even thinking about it. So I lack belief. That's it.
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Well said.
 
AProudLefty said:
You're the one who seems to be struggling with this, not me. "Atheism" has always meant "without belief in God/gods". It's quite simple.
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BULLSHIT!

For most of its existence in English...it meant the denial of the existence of gods. If you were to look up "atheist" in any dictionary printed before 1950...the number one definition would be a variation on "a person who denies the existence of any gods."

The notion that it means "without a belief in gods"...is relatively new...and is gratuitous for the atheist position that they lack beliefs. Most HAVE BELIEFS.



Because how do you measure the likelihood of something when you have NO information of said something?
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Many atheists simply do "measure the likelihood." In fact, many insist that it is a result of applying logic and science to the issue. But...there is absolutely no way anyone can come to "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one" using logic, science, math or anything else.

It is BELIEF, pure and simply...by which I mean...a blind guess.

That is what theists do...and, unfortunately, that is what most atheists do also.


Sure anyone can believe that it's more likely that God/gods doesn't exist. But that doesn't make them atheists based on that, does it? That would be more in the realm of agnostic atheism.
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That is playing games with descriptors. That is why I try to stay away from them. Rather than insisting that I am agnostic, I say:

I do not know if any gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.




Yes I do. People have various opinions/beliefs about God/gods.
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Then why did you say it is impossible?



AGAIN, in order for atheists/agnostics to exist, "God" or "gods" HAVE to be invented BEFORE. If claims that God/gods exist have not been made, then nobody would really be atheists/agnostics, would there?
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I AM SAYING THAT THE WORDS "ATHEIST/ATHEISM" CAME INTO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BEFORE THE WORDS "THEIST/THEISM."

If you disagree with that...tell me why. We can discuss it.


Then, according to you, you have an ACTIVE BELIEF that Bigfoot doesn't exist.
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What the hell are you talking about?

I have NO ACTIVE BELIEFS AT ALL.

I make guesses, make estimates, have opinions, speculate...and that sort of thing. But when I do, I call them guesses, estimates, opinions, and speculations. I never disguise them using the words "believe" or "belief."
 
Frank Apisa said:
I do not know if any gods exist or not;
I see no reason to suspect gods CANNOT EXIST...that the existence of gods is impossible;
I see no reason to suspect that gods MUST EXIST...that gods are needed to explain existence;
I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess in either direction...

...so I don't.
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Uh that's exactly what "agnostic atheist" means!!!!

Then why did you say it is impossible?
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I said it's impossible to evaluate the probability of a thing with NO information. People can say or explain why they think it's likely or not likely that Bigfoot exist. But that's what it is, a belief in the probability based on no information.

I AM SAYING THAT THE WORDS "ATHEIST/ATHEISM" CAME INTO THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE BEFORE THE WORDS "THEIST/THEISM."

If you disagree with that...tell me why. We can discuss it.
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Already done. It being the first word in English language has no bearing in the discussion.


I have NO ACTIVE BELIEFS AT ALL.
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BINGO!!! NOW YOU'RE GETTING IT!!!!

I make guesses, make estimates, have opinions, speculate...and that sort of thing. But when I do, I call them guesses, estimates, opinions, and speculations. I never disguise them using the words "believe" or "belief."
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ANOTHER BINGO!
 
AProudLefty said:
"Do you believe that aliens exist?" "No."
"Do you believe that aliens don't exist?" "No."
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If aliens don't exist, why all the fuss about the southern border?

It's possible to not harbor a firm belief on either side of a discussion, I suppose.
That becomes even more plausible when one simply doesn't give a shit either way.
 
AProudLefty said:
Uh that's exactly what "agnostic atheist" means!!!!
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No it doesn't.


I said it's impossible to evaluate the probability of a thing with NO information. People can say or explain why they think it's likely or not likely that Bigfoot exist. But that's what it is, a belief in the probability based on no information.
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You didn't say that.

Go back and read what you said.



Already done. It being the first word in English language has no bearing in the discussion.
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Sorry this is getting to you so, Lefty.

Your sentence makes no sense.



BINGO!!! NOW YOU'RE GETTING IT!!!!
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Go read a book or watch a movie. You need to get away from the problems you are having with this discussion.



ANOTHER BINGO!
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Or just watch a bit of television.

Just anything to relieve the tension you are under.
 
Frank Apisa said:
No it doesn't.
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Yes it does. Read the definition.

You didn't say that.
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If I wasn't being clear, then I apologize. Clearly I didn't mean that it's impossible for people to believe in the likelihood of gods existing or not.

Sorry this is getting to you so, Lefty.
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I'll bite. How exactly is it getting to me?

Go read a book or watch a movie. You need to get away from the problems you are having with this discussion.
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In other words, "I cannot make my case properly so I'll tell him to take a break while I figure out how to make my case properly."
 
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