Dick Cheney Was Right

[Socrtease]

Then I stand slightly corrected, I was unaware the majority occured that early. That said, the fact that there wasn't enough time for an EMOTIONAL attachement to form doesn't alter one bit that it was a kids life that ended.

LAWS do not dictate who is human and who is not. Going back to the founders is a very poor example. Because they also failed to outlaw slavery and when slaves were freed they became 3/5 of a person. So please tell me you are not going to hang your argument on that. Again, it is an arbitrary line in the sand that you are drawing. Those lines are based on EMOTION. You know, the thing you keep accusing me of relying upon. Whereas my line is based on scientific FACT.

You rely on the fact that it is genetically a human being, but a fetus at 4 weeks gestation is not more an individual than is a child born without a brain. In your world, a woman that lives a life in such a way as to cause a miscarriage when she knew she was pregnant is a murderer. In your world, every miscarriage is a possible homicide and should be investigated as such. When you start giving the fetus the exact same rights as a born child you open up a whole can of worms that you did not intend. There has to be a line where the potential of life does not outweigh the life in being. Throughout history there has been.

 

[Cancel7]

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Talk to woman who has had a miscarriage... talk to psychiatrists about what those women go through. It is the loss of their child and they typically respond in that manner.

I can't even get my mind around how wrong you are about this. Nearly every woman I know who has children, has also had miscarriages in between successful pregnancies, including my sister in law. They happen in the first weeks, and if you want to pretend that if you asked any of those women if that was anything like losing the children they gave birth to, I think you'd seriously become a social outcast. Just for asking. That's how strange of a premise this is.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

"The whole viability issue is a very slippery slope. I truly hate that argument as who decides what is viable? Technology keeps increasing to where every decade younger and younger pre-mature births are able to survive. So how can you draw that line? WHO gets to decide where that line is? "

Viability is as clear a compromise as there will ever be between the pro-life and pro-choice sides, lest God weigh in on the subject in some sort of definitive way.

We have been harping on you about frozen embryos, and for good reason. You have your spin on that, and it's fine. Do you really consider all of those frozen embryos, "in statis", to be babies? To be the equivalent of living, independent 4-year-olds?

The equation you're ignoring, and which is also scientific FACT, is that the continued existence & development of a zygote, embryo or fetus depends ENTIRELY on the use of someone else's body. It's your inconvenient truth. Even if you see a zygote a fully developed 4-year-old with all the rights of any living human, but no human has the right to use another human's body in order to sustain their development.

Bingo... there you have it... you finally came to the actual argument. RIGHTS. What rights should the unborn child be entitled to? THAT is the argument that is valid. Because here you can make a case that is defensible, even though I would disagree with it.

Hopefully we can now dispense with the whole 'its not human yet' line of bullshit.

 

[Cancel7]

You are right, viability does keep moving further and further back. At some point, we will have the technology to remove the fetus from the woman and plant it in an artificial womb. Then we will all have that brave new world to contend with.

I hope we get technology that allows us to remove the fetus and implant it in men first.

I can't wait to see the rabid extremist fanatics lining up for that. I'm sure SF will be first in line.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

That's interesting. What, really, is the difference, unless you're acknowledging a supernatural involvement?

The difference is in the actions taken by others. If we try to give the life a chance and it fails, that is natural. If we deliberately try to end the life, then that is an unnatural death.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

You are right, viability does keep moving further and further back. At some point, we will have the technology to remove the fetus from the woman and plant it in an artificial womb. Then we will all have that brave new world to contend with.

I still as of yet have to see a study that says the US is worse off because there are 40 million less people since Roe in the US than there should be. Like I said, it is the last worst choice a woman should have to make, but your side has worked its ass off to make reducing the number of unintended pregnancies harder to do. Your side, and they are YOUR SIDE, want to teach kids to just ignore that innate drive they feel to breed. Go take a cold shower, go play baseball but for god sake don't buy that condom, don't get on the pill. Don't teach kids how to NOT get pregnant because if you teach them that you are teaching them it is ok to have sex. The right has busted its ass to make this problem worse, they get all defensive of the fetus while it is in utero, but then when born it is the mothers fault she has a child she can't feed, it is the mothers fault that he child doesn't have insurance, this remarkable gift become "the mother's fault" almost at birth.

They may be on MY side when it comes to protecting the life of the kid, but that does not make them on MY side on every other issue. That is simply bullshit projection on your part.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

I hope we get technology that allows us to remove the fetus and implant it in men first.

I can't wait to see the rabid extremist fanatics lining up for that. I'm sure SF will be first in line.

I doubt the rabid extremist fanatics would line up for it.... they are the ones trying to kill the kids in the first place.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

You rely on the fact that it is genetically a human being, but a fetus at 4 weeks gestation is not more an individual than is a child born without a brain. In your world, a woman that lives a life in such a way as to cause a miscarriage when she knew she was pregnant is a murderer. In your world, every miscarriage is a possible homicide and should be investigated as such. When you start giving the fetus the exact same rights as a born child you open up a whole can of worms that you did not intend. There has to be a line where the potential of life does not outweigh the life in being. Throughout history there has been.

There is where we certainly disagree. It is certainly an individual. The difference between a child born without a brain and a child whose brain development either hasn't occurred (or more likely we haven't developed the technology to detect) is that one has NO chance of ever having a brain, the other does.

Again, you state the potential of life.... where does this 'potential' begin? Where you say? or does it begin when the life ACTUALLY begins.

Topspin has no potential, does that mean I can abort him?

 

[Onceler]

There is where we certainly disagree. It is certainly an individual. The difference between a child born without a brain and a child whose brain development either hasn't occurred (or more likely we haven't developed the technology to detect) is that one has NO chance of ever having a brain, the other does.

Again, you state the potential of life.... where does this 'potential' begin? Where you say? or does it begin when the life ACTUALLY begins.

Topspin has no potential, does that mean I can abort him?

You make distinctions when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't, a zygote in the 1st day of development is EXACTLY the same as a 4-year-old.

Can't you at least acknowledge the absurdity of that? We ARE talking about a potential human being, not a human being who is cognizant of their existence (and spare me the strawmen about fully developed humans in a coma). We weigh that POTENTIAL life against the rights of the body that potential life needs to actually become a life.

The latter wins out. Sorry.

 

[Cancel7]

There is where we certainly disagree. It is certainly an individual. The difference between a child born without a brain and a child whose brain development either hasn't occurred (or more likely we haven't developed the technology to detect) is that one has NO chance of ever having a brain, the other does.

Again, you state the potential of life.... where does this 'potential' begin? Where you say? or does it begin when the life ACTUALLY begins.

Topspin has no potential, does that mean I can abort him?

Topspin a candidate for abortion - would you look at yourself. I really wish I could unearth what has driven you to this, because no matter how much you deny it, you are a fanatical extremist on this subject, and you aren't on other subjects. It's anomalous, it's weird. My great-grandmother (who i didn't know) used to tell my grandma that she tried to abort her. My grandma was her 8 child and she was worn out, old, and freaking tired. She jumped up and down, gave herself some kind of weird herbal douches and all kinds of crazy stuff. And my grandmother was always a little bitter about that, and who can blame her? I mean, I don't think it's appropriate to tell your kid that they are the abortion that failed. And that's what made me wonder what your story is. Not that I expect you to share it, or that you should share it; you shouldn't. But I have to admit my curiosity is aroused.

 

[Bonestorm]

The difference is in the actions taken by others. If we try to give the life a chance and it fails, that is natural. If we deliberately try to end the life, then that is an unnatural death.

What a crock of shit. I can see that you really really want to make a principled stance based on your idea that a fertilized egg is a person, child, baby, kid, tyke, tot, little one and cetera, but there is no principled stance to take.

Either fertility clinics are murder mills equal if not worse than abortion providers and couples that freeze fertilized eggs for future use are muderers just the same as those that have abortions or the issue isn't quite as black and white as you would have it. Given your equivocation on the former, it is abundantly clear to me and any other observer that the latter is true.

 

[maineman]

You make distinctions when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't, a zygote in the 1st day of development is EXACTLY the same as a 4-year-old.

Can't you at least acknowledge the absurdity of that? We ARE talking about a potential human being, not a human being who is cognizant of their existence (and spare me the strawmen about fully developed humans in a coma). We weigh that POTENTIAL life against the rights of the body that potential life needs to actually become a life.

The latter wins out. Sorry.

well said.

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

You make distinctions when it suits your argument, but when it doesn't, a zygote in the 1st day of development is EXACTLY the same as a 4-year-old.

Can't you at least acknowledge the absurdity of that? We ARE talking about a potential human being, not a human being who is cognizant of their existence (and spare me the strawmen about fully developed humans in a coma). We weigh that POTENTIAL life against the rights of the body that potential life needs to actually become a life.

The latter wins out. Sorry.

No dipshit... we are not talking about a potential human being. At NO time is it not human or not in existance. The absurdity of that is mind numbing. Unless of course (here we go again) you can show where it is not either one.

Being cognizant is NOT a qualification for being a human being. It is not a strawman to compare two individuals both of whom are not cognizant. It is your argument for stating that the unborn child isn't human (or that it is a potential human)

You finally got to the real argument and then you fall back into this bullshit. Why?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Topspin a candidate for abortion - would you look at yourself. I really wish I could unearth what has driven you to this, because no matter how much you deny it, you are a fanatical extremist on this subject, and you aren't on other subjects. It's anomalous, it's weird. My great-grandmother (who i didn't know) used to tell my grandma that she tried to abort her. My grandma was her 8 child and she was worn out, old, and freaking tired. She jumped up and down, gave herself some kind of weird herbal douches and all kinds of crazy stuff. And my grandmother was always a little bitter about that, and who can blame her? I mean, I don't think it's appropriate to tell your kid that they are the abortion that failed. And that's what made me wonder what your story is. Not that I expect you to share it, or that you should share it; you shouldn't. But I have to admit my curiosity is aroused.

Dear emotional one... it was a fucking joke you dipshit... I was not serious about aborting toppy.

Just think... had your grandma been aborted... YOU would not exist.

As for me, there is no story other than I choose not to ignore science and I choose not to be a person who will draw an arbitrary line as to when someone becomes 'viable'. Especially given our continuous improvements in technology.

Again... a fanatic is one who is willing to kill to protect their position/beliefs... such as the idiot that killed Tiller... and the pro-abortionists who believe it is ok to kill a child if they can dehumanize it enough.

 

[Onceler]

"At NO time is it not human or not in existance"

You're wrong. I don't know how anyone can argue that a clump of cells without a brain, cognizence or any real functionality that is completely reliant on another's body is a "human in existence."

 

[Cancel7]

Dear emotional one... it was a fucking joke you dipshit... I was not serious about aborting toppy.

Just think... had your grandma been aborted... YOU would not exist.

As for me, there is no story other than I choose not to ignore science and I choose not to be a person who will draw an arbitrary line as to when someone becomes 'viable'. Especially given our continuous improvements in technology.

Again... a fanatic is one who is willing to kill to protect their position/beliefs... such as the idiot that killed Tiller... and the pro-abortionists who believe it is ok to kill a child if they can dehumanize it enough.

Really, I wouldn't exist if my grandmother had been aborted?

OMG I never even thought of that in all these years. You've converted me SF! I'm anti-choice now! Where's my sign?

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

What a crock of shit. I can see that you really really want to make a principled stance based on your idea that a fertilized egg is a person, child, baby, kid, tyke, tot, little one and cetera, but there is no principled stance to take.

Either fertility clinics are murder mills equal if not worse than abortion providers and couples that freeze fertilized eggs for future use are muderers just the same as those that have abortions or the issue isn't quite as black and white as you would have it. Given your equivocation on the former, it is abundantly clear to me and any other observer that the latter is true.

Again dipshit.... it is not the same.... freezing the eggs is not killing them. Seriously, look up stasis, educated yourself on what it means. If the freezing process killed the kids then it the doctors would be implanting DEAD fertilized eggs.

 

[Onceler]

"If the freezing process killed the kids "

Seriously - you just have to think about that statement...

 

[Cancel 2016.2]

Really, I wouldn't exist if my grandmother had been aborted?

OMG I never even thought of that in all these years. You've converted me SF! I'm anti-choice now! Where's my sign?

You mean PRO-LIFE.... not your normal anti-life.

The point is, have you or your grandmother/parent done any good with their life or are your lives worthless and devoid of any meaning?

 

[DamnYankee]

Really, I wouldn't exist if my grandmother had been aborted?

OMG I never even thought of that in all these years. You've converted me SF! I'm anti-choice now! Where's my sign?

You don't understand, we want liberals to be pro-choice and kill their own children.