Dick Cheney Was Right

Darla said:
I can't waste another day here with you! I'll be back to look at this in the morning. You are going to ruin me if this keeps up. I knew I should never have started posting here again.
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Don't take things to seriously Darla. Hell half the time we play devils advocate. If SF is getting under your skin, tell him to have a coke and a smile and STFU. :)
 
Mottleydude said:
Don't take things to seriously Darla. Hell half the time we play devils advocate. If SF is getting under your skin, tell him to have a coke and a smile and STFU. :)
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Yeah, she has a coke and he has a tall glass of stfu!
 
Superfreak said:
Side note... my position comes from

1) Scientific FACT

2) The belief that all human beings are entitled to basic human rights protections.

Both are completely logical.

The illogical ones are those who:

1) Ignore the Scientific FACT

2) Believe that one persons convenience is a higher priorty than anothers right to live.

Neither of which is logical.
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I'd debate you on that. I dont' think your grasp of embryology, developmental biology and bioethics are as sound as you think they are.
 
Mottleydude said:
I concur. When debating this topic one needs to differentiate between when human life begins and a fully developed human being.
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exactly. to give equal status to zygotes and people is silly, IMO.

A zygote may be a form of human life, but I don't think it has any rights when compared to the woman in whom it is a parasite.
 
Dungheap said:
It's got nothing to do with you, hombre.

I' so proud of you for standing by your man though. Speaking of which, how is Tancredo doing? I haven't seem much of him since he called La Raza the Latino KKK sans robes and nooses. Oh, and how's Shaeffer doing in the margarita biz?
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He's speaking for the legalization of MJ now. My current congressman is Mike Coffman, you may remember me talking him up with SF long before last election.

BTW - That post was agreed with by the person you seem to pretend hasn't spoken to that. It's why I mentioned it. I figured somebody halfway intellectually honest may go back and read it.

Shaffer is much richer than you, in whatever business he chooses. I'm good. I think Udall will likely stick for a bit, but I think Bennett is very likely to lose his seat in the next election.
 
Mottleydude said:
I concur. When debating this topic one needs to differentiate between when human life begins and a fully developed human being.
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You mean:

"When speaking on this subject, because I want to justify my continued support of research, we should use the arbitrary line I use over any other."
 
maineman said:
exactly. to give equal status to zygotes and people is silly, IMO.

A zygote may be a form of human life, but I don't think it has any rights when compared to the woman in whom it is a parasite.
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I could definitely agree with this theory if the pregnancy placed the womans life in jeopardy, or if the health of said woman was already an issue, but what about a perfectly healthy woman?
 
Damocles said:
He's speaking for the legalization of MJ now. My current congressman is Mike Coffman, you may remember me talking him up with SF long before last election.

BTW - That post was agreed with by the person you seem to pretend hasn't spoken to that. It's why I mentioned it. I figured somebody halfway intellectually honest may go back and read it.

Shaffer is much richer than you, in whatever business he chooses. I'm good. I think Udall will likely stick for a bit, but I think Bennett is very likely to lose his seat in the next election.
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Oh, right. Superfreak thinks abortion is murder akin to the Holocaust that "pro-abortionists" are akin to Hitler but mildly "disagrees" with the murder of children in fertility clinics while going on to say:

Again dipshit.... it is not the same.... freezing the eggs is not killing them. Seriously, look up stasis, educated yourself on what it means. If the freezing process killed the kids then it the doctors would be implanting DEAD fertilized eggs.
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Ignoring the obvious truth that fertility treatments involve lots and lots and lots of killing "kids."

It makes a lot of sense. Really.


And Schaeffer may enjoy more material wealth than me, but he's major fucking douchebag so I'm cool with it.
 
Dungheap said:
Oh, right. Superfreak thinks abortion is murder akin to the Holocaust that "pro-abortionists" are akin to Hitler but mildly "disagrees" with the murder of children in fertility clinics while going on to say:



Ignoring the obvious truth that fertility treatments involve lots and lots and lots of killing "kids."

It makes a lot of sense. Really.


And Schaeffer may enjoy more material wealth than me, but he's major fucking douchebag so I'm cool with it.
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Again, the intellectually honest person would read my post and his answer to it, especially after it was directly pointed out to them.

It is nice to again have evidence of disingenuity. It makes the board worthwhile to laugh at people who fail to actually speak on the information gained during the conversation at hand.

You asked about Shaffer thinking it would make me sad or something. But not really. Bob was a good guy and IMO would be better than Udall, but heck.. politics is an ebb and flow type of game. I don't know him personally so it's no skin off my nose.
 
Damocles said:
Again, the intellectually honest person would read my post and his answer to it, especially after it was directly pointed out to them.

It is nice to again have evidence of disingenuity. It makes the board worthwhile to laugh at people who fail to actually speak on the information gained during the conversation at hand.

You asked about Shaffer thinking it would make me sad or something. But not really. Bob was a good guy and IMO would be better than Udall, but heck.. politics is an ebb and flow type of game. I don't know him personally so it's no skin off my nose.
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Um. I did read your post and his answer to it. I have also read his various posts after stating that he agreed with what you wrote wherein he denies that these fertility clinics (again, that he "disagrees with") involve killing "kids," and I posted one in particular for your edification.

In short, it's not me that's being disingenuous. It's your buddy. Good of you to stand by your man again, though. I'm sure he'll thank you but going forward let's let junior speak for himself. He's a big boy.


And I thought you knew Schaeffer personally. You claimed that you were personally going to ask him about his Abramoff-funded trip to the Mariana Islands and his full-throated defense of the working conditions on the islands notwithstanding the varied reports from the Department of the Interior showing how abusive they were (including, relevant to this thread, forced abortions).
 
Dungheap said:
Um. I did read your post and his answer to it. I have also read his various posts after stating that he agreed with what you wrote wherein he denies that these fertility clinics (again, that he "disagrees with") involve killing "kids," and I posted one in particular for your edification.

In short, it's not me that's being disingenuous. It's your buddy. Good of you to stand by your man again, though. I'm sure he'll thank you but going forward let's let junior speak for himself. He's a big boy.


And I thought you knew Schaeffer personally. You claimed that you were personally going to ask him about his Abramoff-funded trip to the Mariana Islands and his full-throated defense of the working conditions on the islands notwithstanding the varied reports from the Department of the Interior showing how abusive they were (including, relevant to this thread, forced abortions).
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I ran the campaign in my county for a friend of his that was running for State Rep (she won). While I got to speak with him, it wasn't because he comes to my house for dinner, it was because I was working for a friend of his. I don't know him personally, only politically. And I did ask him, and posted his answer.

I find it interesting that you keep asking the question that was answered previously then use SF's posts about the difference between cryostasis and death as some continuation of that same thing while it is a different subject. I'll let SF answer for his own, but I do like pointing out inconsistencies and straw men when I see them regardless of who the target is.
 
Superfreak said:
Again dipshit.... it is not the same.... freezing the eggs is not killing them. Seriously, look up stasis, educated yourself on what it means. If the freezing process killed the kids then it the doctors would be implanting DEAD fertilized eggs.
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so what are the clinics when they dispose of them? They destroy them by fire, imagine the horror those poor little zygotes feel as they are flamed. None.
 
Onceler said:
Well, I can certainly find plenty of agreement there. I have said all along that viability is really the only point where the sides CAN compromise, though there are those on both sides who will choose not to do so.

Because it is arbitrary, many on the pro-life side simply don't want to deal with it, and continue to insist that destroying a microscopic clump of cells is the equivalent of baby-killing.

But it HAS to be arbitrary. To delve into the other argument - accepting that a zygote is a human being with full rights, and then exploring the extent of those rights, I would STILL contend with moral authority that no human with full rights has any right whatsoever to rent another human's body for 9 months, with all that it entails.

I often wonder if people who are so vehemently pro-life have ever even known someone who is pregnant, and what it means to be pregnant physically, emotionally, mentally, etc. It is not something to be taken lightly, and despite the characterizations of women who have abortions as doing so out of "convenience" or as birth control, the situations are very often far more serious than that, and the circumstances such that abortion is truly the best option, for anyone involved.

Viability is a good compromise. It's arbitrary, and there may be different standards for where it occurs, but it's the only sensible option.
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Ahh... but here is the rub.... while I agree that no human being has the right to forcefully rent another human in such a manner, neither does a human being have the right to take an innocent life. Add to that the fact that it was not the childs CHOICE to be conceived, but the mother/fathers choice to have sex that led to the pregnancy to begin with. Now again, this is assuming the full rights you mentioned in the bolded being granted.

So what you end up with is conflicting rights... this (to me) is where the real discussion is. Because you can indeed argue it both ways. Obviously we disagree on this point. But even I will admit your side of the argument does have moral authority in the sense that 'forcing' a woman to go the distance in the pregnancy seems wrong. But at the same time I believe my argument has a greater moral authority as it is also wrong to end the childs life given that it was not childs choice to be conceived and it is the childs LIFE that is at stake vs. the 9 months of hardship a woman would go through. If we are to err... I choose to err on the side that protects the life over the side that protects the mother from going through the pregnancy.
 
maineman said:
exactly. to give equal status to zygotes and people is silly, IMO.

A zygote may be a form of human life, but I don't think it has any rights when compared to the woman in whom it is a parasite.
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Which is a valid position to take. I know I am not going to change the minds of pro-abortionists in terms of equal protection and rights, but I would like to think they will follow your lead and recognize that it is indeed a human life they are ending. That at least is a start that can open up honest discussions on the topic rather than the non-stop reversion to the 'magic baby fairy turns it human at point x' type positions being taken by some.
 
Superfreak said:
Which is a valid position to take. I know I am not going to change the minds of pro-abortionists in terms of equal protection and rights, but I would like to think they will follow your lead and recognize that it is indeed a human life they are ending. That at least is a start that can open up honest discussions on the topic rather than the non-stop reversion to the 'magic baby fairy turns it human at point x' type positions being taken by some.
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that is the key...all things equal, but for the abortion a human life would have begun, not ended
 
Superfreak said:
"A fertilized egg that is frozen is more in stasis. sorry, but that is the best way I can describe it... it is neither growing/developing nor is it dead... this goes back to my comment on how our increased technology allows us to screw around with the natural life cycle."

The above was my response to your question. As I said, 'stasis' was the best way I knew to describe the situation. The frozen embryo is not dead and it is not growing and developing. How else would you describe it???

Please enlighten us Dung. How would you describe that state of being?
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Frozen
 
Yurt said:
that is the key...all things equal, but for the abortion a human life would have begun, not ended
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woulda coulda shoulda

bid deal.

a clump of cells the size of a pinhead may technically qualify as human life, but if the woman who is having that parasite growing in her doesn't want it, flush it.... her life is worth saving...the zygote....not so much.
 
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