Do You Think The Rich Should Be Taxed More?

Can you cite any economist or official who claimed tax cuts would trickle down? Or, it is a derisive term by opponents of such policies? It is a straw man.

http://www.aei.org/publication/thom...and-then-profits-flow-upward-later-if-at-all/

http://www.tsowell.com/images/Hoover Proof.pdf

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trickle-down_economics

"Trickle down" is a reasonable way to describe what was expected of tax cuts for corporations and for the richest Americans...especially, but not limited to, cuts in the highest tax rates; dividends; and capital gains.

If the American conservative puppet masters require you to argue for different wording...think something up for yourself. I do not want you to get into trouble with them. You might try "supply side economics" "Reaganomics" or "puppet masternomics"...although I suppose that last one will not help you any more than using "trickle down."

K?
 
Keeping taxes at the current rate or raising taxes are no more likely to trickle down to the workers than cutting taxes.

Are we now talking about "increasing taxes?" When did we switch from "increasing taxes for the rich?" Why did we switch?



The difference is that cutting taxes gives workers more to spend although at the expense of increasing the debt.

Cutting taxes for the poor does. Cutting taxes on the rich may not. In fact...this disgusting tax cut for the rich passed by this incompetent Republican control congress...and signed by this incompetent Republican president...DOES WHAT YOU SUGGEST.


Government keeping higher taxes does not trickle down, either, except to government employees.

Fact is...that whether government employees, service members, or corrupt politicians use the money...what is spent...IS SPENT.

Whatever the government spends...if it is cut off...is cut off FROM THE ECONOMY. That includes, by the way, money supposedly used in foreign aid. We do not ship them suitcases filled with Ben Franklins. We give them credits ultimately used to buy American goods.

Jeez!
 
Hello Flash,

They most certainly did. Reagan said it would work. He was spectacularly wrong:

PoliTalker, as your Wickipedia article clearly states the policy was "referred to as trickle-down economics or voodoo economics by political opponents." It was not part of the policies being advocated by the conservatives/Republicans. You say the policy did not work and was "spectactacularly wrong," but the same Wickipedia article describes several improvements in the economy: decline in growth of government spending, increase in productivity, increase in rate of GDP growth per capita, reduced inflation.

The biggest failure was his promise to balance the budget which everyone knew would not happen if you increase defense spending and cut taxes. Personally, I don't think presidents should get most of the blame or credit for the economy--most developments would have occurred with a different president. For example, the large debt increase under Obama would have occurred under any president and the recession under Bush would also have occurred.

And I don't think Reagan had much to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union-it fell apart due to its own failures.
 
Hello and greetings ClassPreE,

Welcome to the discussion.



I disagree. Large rich corporations have plenty of money for expansion. They do not require any more. They have all the money they need for new hiring. What they don't have is new markets for product. That's because they don't pay enough, don't provide enough hours of work, and people can't afford to buy more things.

Taxes on the rich should be raised because we are not collecting enough revenue, and the deficit is too large.

All that, Poli, AND...

...I don't care how much money they have...the fact is that the factor of production that gets the short end of the stick IS and WILL ALWAYS BE...labor!

Almost no corporation is going to plow more money into labor costs. In fact, more than likely, the extra money they get will be plowed into machines that will REDUCE the expense of labor...that will call for fewer jobs, not more.

We should not even be dealing with fiscal or monetary policy in a way that has MORE JOBS as an end...because that is a DEAD END.
 
"Trickle down" is a reasonable way to describe what was expected of tax cuts for corporations and for the richest Americans...especially, but not limited to, cuts in the highest tax rates; dividends; and capital gains.

If the American conservative puppet masters require you to argue for different wording...think something up for yourself. I do not want you to get into trouble with them. You might try "supply side economics" "Reaganomics" or "puppet masternomics"...although I suppose that last one will not help you any more than using "trickle down."

K?

"Puppet masters?" Come on, Frank, you know better than to accept that tired old cliche assuming Americans are helpless and being ruled by some evil force of corporations/capitalism if you are liberal or the "liberal media," Hollywood/intellectual elite and unions if you are conservative. It assumes we have no control over our own behavior--it must be astrology, the Illuminati, or some other force controlling our lives.

If "trickle down" is a reasonable way to describe what was expected, what is a reasonable way to describe what is expected without those tax cuts? What was happening before the latest tax cut that was better (except for a smaller deficit/debt which was not necessary)?
 
"Puppet masters?" Come on, Frank, you know better than to accept that tired old cliche assuming Americans are helpless and being ruled by some evil force of corporations/capitalism if you are liberal or the "liberal media," Hollywood/intellectual elite and unions if you are conservative. It assumes we have no control over our own behavior--it must be astrology, the Illuminati, or some other force controlling our lives.

If "trickle down" is a reasonable way to describe what was expected, what is a reasonable way to describe what is expected without those tax cuts? What was happening before the latest tax cut that was better (except for a smaller deficit/debt which was not necessary)?

Already covered in my last post, Flash. BUT...I will apologize for the "puppet master" remark. I may have stretched that metaphor a bit.
 
Are we now talking about "increasing taxes?" When did we switch from "increasing taxes for the rich?" Why did we switch?

Cutting taxes for the poor does. Cutting taxes on the rich may not. In fact...this disgusting tax cut for the rich passed by this incompetent Republican control congress...and signed by this incompetent Republican president...DOES WHAT YOU SUGGEST.

Cutting taxes for the poor is no longer possible. The Bush tax cuts extended by Obama virtually eliminated federal income taxers for the bottom 40%. According to the IRS/CBO the bottom 40% pays -106% of federal income taxes. It is negative because they owe no income taxes and receive back billions in Earned Income Tax Credits. So, any tax cuts have to go to the top 60%--actually the top 50% since they pay 96% of all federal income taxes. You can't cut taxes for people who do not pay any.

To suggest the poor will spend it but the wealthy will not is untrue. Consumer spending is 2/3 of the economy and the top 20% account for 60% of all consumer spending.


Fact is...that whether government employees, service members, or corrupt politicians use the money...what is spent...IS SPENT.

Whatever the government spends...if it is cut off...is cut off FROM THE ECONOMY. That includes, by the way, money supposedly used in foreign aid. We do not ship them suitcases filled with Ben Franklins. We give them credits ultimately used to buy American goods.

If the money is given to the government it is cut off from the economy--the government has to borrow to spend it.
 
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Already covered in my last post, Flash. BUT...I will apologize for the "puppet master" remark. I may have stretched that metaphor a bit.

Do you mean about labor getting the short end of the stick? I don't see how it gets any more if the money is given to the government than the consumers. Programs like foreign aid often do go to American jobs, but the amount of that dollar that goes to labor is no more than that spent by consumers.
 
Hello EZExit,

I'm so glad you're here and sharing your honest view. My apologies for Frank for jumping on a newbie. Maybe if you didn't make provocative statements about some supposed 'liberal mantra' which doesn't exist any place but in the minds of some conservatives, we could stick to the subject matter at hand.

Good morning PoliTalker!

Washington liberals and conservatives are exactly the same when it comes to spending, nobody cares about the spending, they only want their spending to go to their partisan respective agendas. When the money isn't being funneled in the manner that they want, it is only then the the other party whines about a "spending problem".

No. Liberals do not believe the government has a spending problem. Liberals understand where the problem is. Not enough revenue. Trying to balance the budget by enacting tax cuts is like trying to lose weight by eating cake and candy. Sounds great, but it doesn't work.

Giving the reins of control to democrats to tighten spending is laughable at best.

Which is why Democrats are not talking about tightening spending.

Obama did control some spending during his tenure, but it was due to forced sequestration, one of the few actions of his that I agreed with. Everyone thought of it as the end of the world as we knew it.

We remember differently. The way I see it, President Obama did a marvelous job controlling spending and government bloat.

One more point, everyone looks like a rocket scientist with their fiscal management before the bankruptcy begins. There were many people buying up real estate in the early 2000's, all of these people living large and buying homes based upon stated income and interest only loans, living the life. It is only when a couple of cards became dislodged that the whole house of cards came collapsing down. We did the "too big to fail" fake propping of the foundations, but the damage was done. It led to a very long and painful recovery.

One that many Republicans pretended could happen in just a few months.

Unfortunately, our government doesn't have a benefactor that sees them as "too big to fail", when they fail, they will fall big time, and take us all with it.

The USA still has the strongest economy in the world, by far.

Our government thinks if they simply sit at the table and keep eating, they don't have to worry about the check when they get up to move on.

We do have some issues. But it is a little too simplistic to lay the blame on our government. We are our own government. We elected our government officials. They answer to we the people. It falls upon we the people to maintain our government, identify problems and make corrections. If that is not occurring frequently enough, the problem lies with us.

Most Americans are not very well informed. Liberals constantly push for improving education, but conservatives don't want to pay for it. They call that 'a spending problem.'

If your schools are turning out a bunch of dummies, and your nation has too many people who can't even manage to stay informed enough to even know who their representatives are, much less contact them on an issue, a policy which refuses to improve education is one which perpetuates the problem.
 
Hello Flash,

PoliTalker, as your Wickipedia article clearly states the policy was "referred to as trickle-down economics or voodoo economics by political opponents."

That is true, and I am not arguing semantics. It can be called anything you like, the idea is to first help the rich and then expect THEM to help the poor. As if the effects would 'trickle down from the rich to the poor. Man, if you're trying to help the poor, the thing to do is help the poor in the first place, not the rich.

It was not part of the policies being advocated by the conservatives/Republicans. You say the policy did not work and was "spectactacularly wrong," but the same Wickipedia article describes several improvements in the economy: decline in growth of government spending, increase in productivity, increase in rate of GDP growth per capita, reduced inflation.

The increase in productivity was independent of tax policy. The 80's was when America began to improve and further automate production lines. Increased productivity was the result of creating the same volume of product with fewer workers. Inflation rose and fell during Reagan's years. It was high when he took office as a result of an OPEC oil production slowdown.

The biggest failure was his promise to balance the budget which everyone knew would not happen if you increase defense spending and cut taxes.

Then cutting taxes was the wrong thing to do.

Personally, I don't think presidents should get most of the blame or credit for the economy--most developments would have occurred with a different president. For example, the large debt increase under Obama would have occurred under any president and the recession under Bush would also have occurred.

True. I'm glad we agree on that.

And I don't think Reagan had much to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union-it fell apart due to its own failures.

Also agreed.
 
Hello Frank,

All that, Poli, AND...

...I don't care how much money they have...the fact is that the factor of production that gets the short end of the stick IS and WILL ALWAYS BE...labor!

Almost no corporation is going to plow more money into labor costs. In fact, more than likely, the extra money they get will be plowed into machines that will REDUCE the expense of labor...that will call for fewer jobs, not more.

We should not even be dealing with fiscal or monetary policy in a way that has MORE JOBS as an end...because that is a DEAD END.

??? Did you proofread that?

More jobs is a good thing.

Problem is: we are in a race to the bottom. We are rapidly approaching a situation where there are just not enough jobs for everybody. Already, there are not enough full time jobs with benefits.
 
Cutting taxes for the poor is no longer possible.

Anything is possible...unless established as impossible.


The Bush tax cuts extended by Obama virtually eliminated federal income taxers for the bottom 40%. According to the IRS/CBO the bottom 40% pays -106% of federal income taxes.

I'll take your word. Let's cut it more...so that the bottom 40% pay -125% or even less.



It is negative because they owe no income taxes and receive back billions in Earned Income Tax Credits. So, any tax cuts have to go to the top 60%--actually the top 50% since they pay 96% of all federal income taxes. You can't cut taxes for people who do not pay any.

Then do not give any tax cuts.



To suggest the poor will spend it but the wealthy will not is untrue.

Re-read what I wrote. I did not say the poor will spend it (although they will)...and I certainly did not say the wealth would not (although they will spend less as a percentage.)



Consumer spending is 2/3 of the economy and the top 20% account for 60% of all consumer spending.

A horrible lack of patriotism on the part of the poor...who should be spending more no matter than they don't have more to spend. Maybe they should steal it...and then spend it. Rob banks...and such.


If the money is given to the government it is cut off from the economy--the government has to borrow to spend it.

Not if we stopped with cutting more and more of the taxes the rich pay.

Go back to my post #155 and allow that information to truly penetrate.
 
Hi Flash,

"Puppet masters?" Come on, Frank, you know better than to accept that tired old cliche assuming Americans are helpless and being ruled by some evil force of corporations/capitalism if you are liberal or the "liberal media," Hollywood/intellectual elite and unions if you are conservative. It assumes we have no control over our own behavior--it must be astrology, the Illuminati, or some other force controlling our lives.

Agreed. Not everyone is led around by a few sound bytes. There are people on both sides of the political spectrum who do think for themselves.

If "trickle down" is a reasonable way to describe what was expected, what is a reasonable way to describe what is expected without those tax cuts? What was happening before the latest tax cut that was better (except for a smaller deficit/debt which was not necessary)?

That easy. The deficit was smaller. We were not growing the debt as fast.

Now that we got the tax cut on the very ones who were paying the most taxes, we are not collecting enough revenue. We need to be reducing the debt, not growing it.
 
Hello Flash, That is true, and I am not arguing semantics. It can be called anything you like, the idea is to first help the rich and then expect THEM to help the poor. As if the effects would 'trickle down from the rich to the poor. Man, if you're trying to help the poor, the thing to do is help the poor in the first place, not the rich.

I don't agree. The idea of supply side has nothing to do with helping the rich and then expecting them to help the poor.

"Supply-side economics is a macroeconomic theory that argues economic growth can be most effectively created by lowering taxes and decreasing regulation. According to supply-side economics, consumers will then benefit from a greater supply of goods and services at lower prices and employment will increase."

Tax cuts are not limited to the wealthy and in another post I pointed out how the bottom 40% virtually pay no federal income taxes; thus, by default, any tax cuts are going more to those who pay most of the taxes. Cutting regulations is not just for the wealthy and many benefit the middle class because many regulations are designed to protect American businesses from competition increasing prices for consumers. A lot of regulations hurt small businesses at the expense of larger ones.

Cutting taxes did not take away from government's efforts to directly help the poor. There are 80+ means tested federal welfare programs spending over $1 trillion. This does not include entitlements such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. [Senate Budget Committee]. I don't see that these programs have been very successful but they have increased in number and spending under both parties while the poverty rate has remained stable. And, as has been expressed in other threads, a lot of those programs also provide added income for the wealthy.

I don't understand why it is wrong if the wealthy benefit from tax cuts but it is ok for them to benefit from government programs---often a much higher amount (food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid). The left seems very hostile to the wealthy corporations and the right is hostile to the wealthy in Hollywood.

Then cutting taxes was the wrong thing to do.

It was the wrong thing to do without also cutting spending. The deficit is due to spending increasing at a faster rate than revenue.
 
Hello Boris,

Such as?

If I may, Poli...my experience is that "unconstitutional federal programs" is most often used by American conservatives as code for: Any programs that do not further enrich the already wealthy...or that do not further impoverish the already poor.

I'm hoping that Boris will see the term differently.

Following along.
 
Hello Flash,

I don't agree. The idea of supply side has nothing to do with helping the rich and then expecting them to help the poor.

I believe it most certainly does. The idea is to remove regulatory/socialistic impediments to capitalism, and place fuller faith that capitalism will provide for all in due proportion. The expectation that the rich will create jobs for the poor is the way it is presumed they will help the poor. (and the only way)

"Supply-side economics is a macroeconomic theory that argues economic growth can be most effectively created by lowering taxes and decreasing regulation. According to supply-side economics, consumers will then benefit from a greater supply of goods and services at lower prices and employment will increase."

Correct. But there is a limit to the effectiveness of SSE. SSE loses effectiveness as the market becomes saturated.

When all the consumers who wish to have product have already purchased what they want, producing more volume of product becomes pointless because it will not sell. Beyond that point, there is no usefulness to creating more product, if the market is 'saturated' and the product will not sell. Employers do not hire, not because they lack funds to expand, but because that expansion will not generate acceptable ROI, return on investment. Giving employers tax breaks and fewer regulations beyond that point will not improve the economy. It will be detrimental. If the government has committed hari kari by extending such generous tax breaks that insufficient revenue is collected, it will hurt the economy because the economy depends on the government credit rating which will be subsequently downgraded as Debt/GDP rises to unsustainable levels.

Tax cuts are not limited to the wealthy and in another post I pointed out how the bottom 40% virtually pay no federal income taxes; thus, by default, any tax cuts are going more to those who pay most of the taxes.

The second part of that sentence contradicts the first. Tax cuts most certainly benefit only the wealthy precisely because the lower 40% have already had their taxes cut to zero. Just as you say, the cuts are going to those who pay, the rich. The upper 60% ARE the rich, compared to the lower 40%. Not to mention that the largest cuts have gone to the richest, and the richest corporations.[/QUOTE]

Cutting regulations is not just for the wealthy and many benefit the middle class because many regulations are designed to protect American businesses from competition increasing prices for consumers. A lot of regulations hurt small businesses at the expense of larger ones.

But those are *never* the regulations which get cut, due mainly to crony capitalism. The regulations which get cut are safety and environmental regulations. This sort of sleight of hand takes place where they claim the problem is 'over-regulation' (which is an over-simplification) and then instead of cutting the regulations which hurt entrepreneurs they cut the ones that hurt mega corporations.

Cutting taxes did not take away from government's efforts to directly help the poor.

No, but the subsequent budget cuts do.

There are 80+ means tested federal welfare programs spending over $1 trillion. This does not include entitlements such as Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. [Senate Budget Committee]. I don't see that these programs have been very successful but they have increased in number and spending under both parties while the poverty rate has remained stable. And, as has been expressed in other threads, a lot of those programs also provide added income for the wealthy.

They have absolutely made a quantum difference in the quality of life for America's poor. The percentage may be the same, but the definition of poor has been raised significantly. The poor in America, thanks mainly to those socialist programs and not capitalism, enjoy a lifestyle which would seem like luxury to the poor in Rio de Janeiro's shanty slums. Some of those shanties are set up in or next to the landfill, which is where many acquire possessions, food, and disease.

I don't understand why it is wrong if the wealthy benefit from tax cuts but it is ok for them to benefit from government programs---often a much higher amount (food stamps, Medicare, Medicaid). The left seems very hostile to the wealthy corporations and the right is hostile to the wealthy in Hollywood.

Neither is right.

It was the wrong thing to do without also cutting spending. The deficit is due to spending increasing at a faster rate than revenue.

Agreed as far as the debt is concerned, but I disagree with doing both, because the USA does not have a spending problem, the things the government has done have been good for people, and we should continue to do them. We thus need to increase taxes in order to balance the budget, mainly increase taxes on the wealthy, because only the wealthy can afford to pay that much. If America did not have so much wealth, America could not support this level of government spending, and America would not be great. In that case, America would be similar to Brazil, and unable to do anything for the poor.

Taxing The Rich More Makes America Great.
 
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If I may, Poli...my experience is that "unconstitutional federal programs" is most often used by American conservatives as code for: Any programs that do not further enrich the already wealthy...or that do not further impoverish the already poor.

I'm hoping that Boris will see the term differently.

Following along.

Shut your mouth, Frankie.
 
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