Eastern philosophy says the self is an illusion

ZenMode said:
There's also a genetic component to the likelihood you'll get divorced.
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Please provide the mathmatical equations, laboratory experiments, numerical models that explain and define justice, equality, freedom, fairness, beauty, love, charity, mercy, courage, friendship.

And explain how people would use them in real life.


If it can't be quantified, it's not science.
 
Telocollinite said:
Do you not observe how the person acts? Do you not feel a physical attraction to them? Surely it isn't "pure reason" that attracts you to someone. Given that you are an animal you are driven in much the same way animals are driven in terms of attraction and mating.
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I don't know why you mention "pure reason." Kant is the only philosopher who used that term.
 
Doc Dutch said:
I don't know anything about Galen and would never laugh at the Greeks....except the joke about Greek men, Greek boys and a crowbar. LOL

I do recall the Islamic Golden Age of knowledge in Baghdad which existed about the same time as Western Europe was going through the Dark Ages.

As for the history of mankind's advancement of knowledge, no history would be complete without discussing the Greeks. Despite the width and breadth of the Roman Empire, they were really never known to be "scientists" except when it came to the military arts.
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Agreed.

It's easy to pat ourselves on the back and talk about how much the Greeks got wrong.

But we have the benefit of 2,500 years of hindsight in the rearview mirror.

What the Greek natural philosophers, mathematicians,and thinkers accomplished was extraordinary, given that they were at the starting line, and were surrounded by other civilizations still in the grip of superstition and supernatural explanations.

100 years from now, people are going to look back and see we were wrong about a lot of things.
 
Cypress said:
Agreed.

It's easy to pat ourselves on the back and talk about how much the Greeks got wrong.

But we have the benefit of 2,500 years of hindsight in the rearview mirror.

What the Greek natural philosophers, mathematicians,and thinkers accomplished was extraordinary, given that they were at the starting line, and were surrounded by other civilizations still in the grip of superstition and supernatural explanations.

100 years from now, people are going to look back and see we were wrong about a lot of things.
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Hindsight is a good thing as George Santayana pointed out: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
 
BidenPresident said:
No. You refuse to address the question. How does science help someone decide whether to get married and to whom?
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I have read a lot of textbooks, articles, seen a lot of podcasts and lectures on physics, chemistry, biology, mathmatics and I never saw anything that guides and enlightens one on issues of love, friendship, fairness, trust, courage, or freedom.
 
Doc Dutch said:
Hindsight is a good thing as George Santayana pointed out: “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”
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I think the most important thing about the Greeks is not a body count of how many things they got right versus what they got got wrong.

The lesson to be learned from the Greeks is taking the time to ask and frame the right questions, looking for explanation and knowledge in natural causes rather than in superstition, and using justification, reason, and logic to aquire knowledge rather than just relying on opinion and belief.
 
Cypress said:
I think the most important thing about the Greeks is not a body count of how many things they got right versus what they got got wrong.

The lesson to be learned from the Greeks is taking the time to ask and frame the right questions, looking for explanation and knowledge in natural causes rather than in superstition, and using justification, reason, and logic to aquire knowledge rather than just relying on opinion and belief.
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Fareed Zakaria wrote about the building blocks of a democratic society*. Along with several other factors he included a per capita GDP. As Donald Rumsfeld once mentioned when questioned about nation building in Iraq, "it's difficult to build a democracy when you don't have water and electricity" <--not an exact quote.

The Greeks are notable for creating a democracy over 2500 years ago. A history which should be remembered and, as you wrote, learned from. That said, as this thread points out, there is a fundamental difference in culture between East and West which is based upon their respective histories and philosophies. The West tends to be very Left-Brained; very logical, very linear. The East is Right-Brained, more holistic.

These differences are easily seen in symbols common to each; the East uses a Circle, the West uses angles, usually either a square or a right triangle. While both are true, I believe it's very important to know and understand each then use these concepts when appropriate.

7umev0.jpg
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*IIRC, it was The Future of Freedom, but it could also have been The Post-American World.
 
Doc Dutch said:
She. :) She doesn't like disagreement so I can see who that would come off as being "the expert".

Artificial Intelligence, as discussed, is electronic. However, with advances in genetics, it's possible AI will move into that world such as with genetically-enhanced chimps or dolphins.
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I can imagine that.
That would be applying the term "artificial intelligence" to genetic enhancement.
I suppose that would be considered if it happens.
Thanks.
 
NiftyNiblick said:
I can imagine that.
That would be applying the term "artificial intelligence" to genetic enhancement.
I suppose that would be considered if it happens.
Thanks.
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The premise of 1972's "Conquest of the Planet of the Apes" was humans embracing ape slavery. It implied that apes were chosen and bred for intelligence so they could carry out work for humans.

Rather than solely fearing a Forbin Project (Colossus)-style destruction/enslavement of humanity, it might be smart to consider problems of breeding genetically enhanced animals to act as slaves.

 
Cypress said:
"Quantitative Data: Science wouldn't be science without the facts, research, and numbers to back up all those theories"

--> National Geographic Society

https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/quantitative-data/
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But not all science results in quantification. Science is, at it's heart, observation and inference in an iterative process of estimating the likelihood of truth.

There's a VAST world of science that is largely qualitative as well as quantitative. Doesn't make it any less scientific for the lack of numeric aspect.
 
Doc Dutch said:
The premise of 1972's "Conquest of the Planet of the Apes" was humans embracing ape slavery. It implied that apes were chosen and bred for intelligence so they could carry out work for humans.

Rather than solely fearing a Forbin Project (Colossus)-style destruction/enslavement of humanity, it might be smart to consider problems of breeding genetically enhanced animals to act as slaves.
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I don't regard one species of advanced animals, i.e., mammals, to be inherently more valuable than any other, this even including field mice and humans.
It's why I have guilt over my meat eating addiction.

I also don't believe in slavery.
I would prefer robotics to genetic exploitation, but that's just me.
It's not something I'm going to argue over.

Also, somebody my age without grandchildren honestly doesn't worry too much about too far in the future.
It's not really my business. If a huge asteroid turns the Earth to dust in 100 years, that's cool with me.
We're not going in a great direction anyway!
 
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Telocollinite said:
But not all science results in quantification. Science is, at it's heart, observation and inference in an iterative process of estimating the likelihood of truth.

There's a VAST world of science that is largely qualitative as well as quantitative. Doesn't make it any less scientific for the lack of numeric aspect.
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Without quantification, science is reduced to metaphysical musing.

I challenge you to post a link to an undergraduate physics, chemistry, or biology web based textbook that does not have equations, statistics, numerical analysis backing up the fundamental concepts
 
Cypress said:
Without quantification, science is reduced to metaphysical musing.
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Again, incorrect. Let's take a greatly descriptive science like geology for instance. Yes there is a lot of quantification in parts of geology but there's also a HUGE fraction that is simply descriptive. Correlation is done across great distances to create an in-depth understanding of the various rock layers based on description eg "color", type of rock, etc.

I challenge you to post a link to an undergraduate physics, chemistry, or biology web based textbook that does not have equations, statistics, numerical analysis
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I'm not saying that these things aren't also important to science but don't necessarily define science. Math is the language of science as they say, but it isn't the whole of science.

Again, science is the discipline of iteratively observing and interpreting and adjusting the interpretation by further observation. It doesn't NEED everything to be quantified.
 
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