Fuck-you-guns

[Liberty]

But there is absolutely no need for ANY LAW ABIDING gun owner to have weapons of mass destruction; assault rifles, high capacity clips or armor piercing ammunition.

The police, and gov't do.

We should too.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

The problem with the gun debate is the sane, moderate and reasonable people are not being served or heard. And then we have the NUTS. On the far left we have people who want to confiscate all firearms. But YOU have yet to become aware the YOU ARE THE NUT at the other extreme. Of the two extremes YOU are the most dangerous to a civilized society, unless you consider THIS a civilized society...

talk about being extreme.....that's you. your issue is that, like apple, you're a statist. you don't trust people so you want the government to control everything. it's the mark of a freedom hating coward. the founders would have killed or exiled you back to england.

 

[SmarterthanYou]

That just IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. You are delusional if you belive that is possable. How many nukes does the Government have?

you are delusional if you think the gov is going to drop a nuke in it's own country against it's own citizens....but I hope you do it somewhere. it would be the quickest way to turn 250 million people in to revolutionaries.

 

[Lowaicue]

Find me someone else who thinks the world can be rid of religion. And anyway, religion isn't the only thing people disagree on. Just look at how angry people get about politics, guns, etc.

Look at the columbine shooting. Those boys shot people who said they believe in god. Should people give up their religion so it's one less thing for people to kill them over?

Come out from under your rock, dear. Open your eyes. Read a book. The difference between you and me is that you dont believe in most gods, I dont believe in any.
There are, in the world, far more people who share my views on religion than share yours.
You are very unfortunate having America as a home and, as such, all the loony gun totin', god totin', child killing history has been poured, over many years, into your once innocent brain.
Wake up to reality and join the rest of humanity. Dont fight them.

 

[KaileyMarie]

Come out from under your rock, dear. Open your eyes. Read a book. The difference between you and me is that you dont believe in most gods, I dont believe in any.
There are, in the world, far more people who share my views on religion than share yours.
You are very unfortunate having America as a home and, as such, all the loony gun totin', god totin', child killing history has been poured, over many years, into your once innocent brain.
Wake up to reality and join the rest of humanity. Dont fight them.

I'm sorry but its so hard to have a conversation with someone who says nothing of weight.

1) If I'm out here having discussions with people about these things I'm obviously not living under a rock. If you have book recommendations to enlighten me to your wisdom please share.

2) I definitely don't care if my beliefs are the same as the majority of the world.

3) I agree with you, I am only still in America because my immediate family is here. I don't agree with killing children, I have three kids of my own under the age of five (yeah yeah I know you feel bad for them that they have me as a parent, blah blah you don't even have to waste your finger strength to type it). So I'm not really sure why you would bring up child killing.. and growing up I knew very few religious people, and I may have known one person who had a gun but didn't tote it around. I don't know if you live in the US or not, but if you look at the media it is most definitely god-centered or Christ like at all so I think you're confused about what's being poured down our throats.


To tell me to wake up to reality and follow the rest of humanity.. What are you expecting me to say back to that? "wow you are a genius why didn't I think of that before?" I'm pretty sure you don't want to come off sounding as immature as you did.

 

[KaileyMarie]

Come out from under your rock, dear. Open your eyes. Read a book. The difference between you and me is that you dont believe in most gods, I dont believe in any.
There are, in the world, far more people who share my views on religion than share yours.
You are very unfortunate having America as a home and, as such, all the loony gun totin', god totin', child killing history has been poured, over many years, into your once innocent brain.
Wake up to reality and join the rest of humanity. Dont fight them.

I meant to say, "it is NOT god centered or Christ like at all."

 

[Phantasmal]

This is exactly why the schools should be given back to the state. So those of us who would rather have armed principles and military at our schools can have it, and those who don't can keep worrying about all of the illegal guns still floating around their "gun free" states.

Armed principals and military at our schools? Why not just a security guard?

 

[KaileyMarie]

Armed principals and military at our schools? Why not just a security guard?

I think for a couple of reasons.

Their salaries are already in the budget.

They have MUCH more training than a security guard.

I think it would be great to give veterans some of the jobs, since it's so hard for them to come back to having a normal job.

And let me just say when I say armed principles, I only mean if they are comfortable with it and go through good, real life scenario training. But I have heard a story of a principle stopping a gunman with a gun he retrieved from his truck (wonder if anyone died or were injured who could have been saved if the gun had been on his hip?).

 

[Lowaicue]

I'm sorry but its so hard to have a conversation with someone who says nothing of weight.

1) If I'm out here having discussions with people about these things I'm obviously not living under a rock. If you have book recommendations to enlighten me to your wisdom please share.

2) I definitely don't care if my beliefs are the same as the majority of the world.

3) I agree with you, I am only still in America because my immediate family is here. I don't agree with killing children, I have three kids of my own under the age of five (yeah yeah I know you feel bad for them that they have me as a parent, blah blah you don't even have to waste your finger strength to type it). So I'm not really sure why you would bring up child killing.. and growing up I knew very few religious people, and I may have known one person who had a gun but didn't tote it around. I don't know if you live in the US or not, but if you look at the media it is most definitely god-centered or Christ like at all so I think you're confused about what's being poured down our throats.


To tell me to wake up to reality and follow the rest of humanity.. What are you expecting me to say back to that? "wow you are a genius why didn't I think of that before?" I'm pretty sure you don't want to come off sounding as immature as you did.

1. Book recommendation? Books are simply opinions. One cannot have opinions about the non-existent. But if you insist then read Hitchens (Chris not his bro), Dawkins, Russell. Read the various bibles, korans and toras.
2. Beliefs? The word says it all.
3. Your chip is showing. Why on earth should I say such a thing about your children? You country has a history of child killing, a history of new invented religions designed to scam the public and make the leaders rich, you country has more guns in private hands than any other. Any American who survives with his or her brain in tact the massive propaganda you face every day is either Michael Moore or a talent yet to be discovered.

Far be it for me to judge my own maturity.

 

[CanceledB]

Armed principals and military at our schools? Why not just a security guard?

BAT-SHIT CRAZY.

 

[Lowaicue]

I meant to say, "it is NOT god centered or Christ like at all."

I guessed as much.

 

[Phantasmal]

I think for a couple of reasons.

Their salaries are already in the budget.

They have MUCH more training than a security guard.

I think it would be great to give veterans some of the jobs, since it's so hard for them to come back to having a normal job.

And let me just say when I say armed principles, I only mean if they are comfortable with it and go through good, real life scenario training. But I have heard a story of a principle stopping a gunman with a gun he retrieved from his truck (wonder if anyone died or were injured who could have been saved if the gun had been on his hip?).

Our school district hires a policeman to be on duty in the high schools, might be something to consider. A lot of security companies hire vets.

 

[Lowaicue]

BAT-SHIT CRAZY.

My school had a high wall around the quad (expecting loony comments at this point). It was there to protect the passing masses from tennis balls, and home made missiles and so that we would not be tempted to run out into the busy road to retrieve such things. What that meant was with only one gate it could be well supervised (it wasn't in those days in the UK). We did not feel 'fortressed', we did not feel 'protected'. We were just at school and cared nothing for anything or anyone who wasn't.
Actually it was quite an attractive wall made of Accrington brick (or similar) and was an inch or two too high for a determined eight year old to pee over!

 

[CanceledB]

My school had a high wall around the quad (expecting loony comments at this point). It was there to protect the passing masses from tennis balls, and home made missiles and so that we would not be tempted to run out into the busy road to retrieve such things. What that meant was with only one gate it could be well supervised (it wasn't in those days in the UK). We did not feel 'fortressed', we did not feel 'protected'. We were just at school and cared nothing for anything or anyone who wasn't.
Actually it was quite an attractive wall made of Accrington brick (or similar) and was an inch or two too high for a determined eight year old to pee over!

Those were the days.

 

[KaileyMarie]

1. Book recommendation? Books are simply opinions. One cannot have opinions about the non-existent. But if you insist then read Hitchens (Chris not his bro), Dawkins, Russell. Read the various bibles, korans and toras.
2. Beliefs? The word says it all.
3. Your chip is showing. Why on earth should I say such a thing about your children? You country has a history of child killing, a history of new invented religions designed to scam the public and make the leaders rich, you country has more guns in private hands than any other. Any American who survives with his or her brain in tact the massive propaganda you face every day is either Michael Moore or a talent yet to be discovered.

Far be it for me to judge my own maturity.

You're the one that told me to read a book in the first place and then you tell me they are just opinion. So I read them all and pick which opinion I like the most? I'll stick with the one I've already chosen.

But I am curious about the history of child killing in the US, because if that's true I would be interested to learn about it.

And please, don't try to group me in with the big banks, pharm industry big wigs, political big wigs, etc. because I am far from that. Also most of America does not have a southern accent, eat squirrel and drink moonshine. Most of us don't kill babies or invent religions. You really think anyone but the rich want the rich to get richer? Shouldn't you be attacking certain people and not the entire country?

What perfect country are you in that we should all be looking to for inspiration?

 

[Lowaicue]

You're the one that told me to read a book in the first place and then you tell me they are just opinion. So I read them all and pick which opinion I like the most? I'll stick with the one I've already chosen.

But I am curious about the history of child killing in the US, because if that's true I would be interested to learn about it.

And please, don't try to group me in with the big banks, pharm industry big wigs, political big wigs, etc. because I am far from that. Also most of America does not have a southern accent, eat squirrel and drink moonshine. Most of us don't kill babies or invent religions. You really think anyone but the rich want the rich to get richer? Shouldn't you be attacking certain people and not the entire country?

What perfect country are you in that we should all be looking to for inspiration?

Look to yourself for inspiration, not me.

 

[Haiku]

I don't think the answer is to militarize ourselves more than we already are...we'll look like an occupied country. I don't want to live with weapons around me all the time...I don't want it, I don't need it and I don't think the idea is worthy of discussion.

Here's an interesting article on America...It is written by a religious person, I'm not religious but that doesn't mean I can't learn from his perspective and knowledge of the topic...

Survivalism, Apocalyptic Aggression, and Violence
Chip Berlet
Sun Dec 16, 2012 at 12:39:36 PM EST

Adam Lanza carried out an act of apocalyptic violence in Connecticut, killing 28 people and wounding another victim. Most of those dead were children…most were just six years old.

We may never know Adam’s motivations. The troubled man's aunt told a reporter that Adam's mother Nancy was “something of a survivalist” and “she worried about economic collapse and had been stockpiling." Nancy Lanza had a collection of guns, including a Bushmaster rifle and at least two automatic pistols. We cannot ask his mother why her son became a murderer because apparently Nancy Lanza was Adams first victim.

Fears of an upcoming economic collapse or other doomsday scenarios are widespread given media attention to the absurd claim that an ancient Mayan calendar predicts the end of time at the end of December. Other speculative theories place the blame for the end of time on a variety of causes.

There are threads connecting survivalism, apocalyptic aggression, and violence, but they need sorting out. First of all, be aware that most people who practice survivalism and most people who have apocalyptic beliefs do not act out in violence.

Mitt Romney is a survivalist as are all devout members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Mormons are mandated by their religion to keep a cache of food, water, and other survival supplies. Given a history of violence against Mormons being pushed out of their homes by angry vigilantes, this is not merely a strange quirk.

Given the widespread media speculation about Adam Lanza’s psychological health, it needs to be said that most people who suffer from some form of mental illness do not act out in violence. Most of the media babble about Lanza’s mental illness is not supported by psychological research much less a real diagnosis.
Let's look at these elements one-by-one.

Apocalypse

Many religions are built around some form of apocalyptic belief and the vast majority of practitioners do not commit violent acts.

In its most generic sense apocalyptic belief is built around a cluster of ideas:

• There is a upcoming confrontation between good and evil

• The clock is ticking and time is running out

• During the confrontation hidden truths will be revealed

• Afterwards the world will be transformed

The words "apocalypse," "prophecy," and "revelation" are all derived from the same basic Greek word which means the unveiling of that which is hidden. Thus in the Bible the Book of Revelation is also called the Apocalypse of John. As it happens most scholars now conclude this John was not the John who was a disciple of Jesus of Nazareth, but a guy who lived in the cave and had visions decades after the events described in the Gospels.

Conspiracy Theories

Christianity is built around an apocalyptic belief, and while most Christians do not weave these religious views into conspiracy theories, some do, especially in the United States. Millions of Americans, especially Christian fundamentalists, scan current events for signs of the approaching end times. For some this involves looking for evidence that trusted political and religious leaders have become secret agents of Satan who is plotting a worldwide conflagration pitting godly Christians against the Devil’s disciples. The expected upcoming battle is an apocalyptic event-- and this doomsday battle of Armageddon might result in the end of time or the victory of God who scourges earth free from nonbelievers and establishes a millennium of peace.

Visit a Christian bookstore and you are likely to find many titles explaining in elaborate detail a variety of conflicting end times scenarios. Traditionally among black Christians this Apocalypse reveals the hidden truth that racism is a sin leading white Christians to repent and reuniting the body of Christ to the church into one triumphant religious utopia. The rhetoric of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. reflected this idea of justice being the outcome of the Apocalypse. Over a century ago Frederick Douglass drew from the same biblical sources to construct his rhetoric against slavery.

Today an apocalyptic view surprisingly widespread among white Christian fundamentalists and evangelicals is that the battle of Armageddon will occur in their lifetimes, and that president Obama and his liberal allies are agents of Satan. Hard to believe? A September 2009 poll in New Jersey found that 14% of Republicans believed that President Obama was the Antichrist—Satan’s chief sidekick in the End Times according to one reading of the Bible’s Book of Revelation. Another 15% thought it might be possible. Scholar Robert Fuller calls “naming the Antichrist” an “American Obsession.” Scholar Paul Boyer has studied the confluence of apocalyptic belief and conspiracy theories, and has warned that apocalyptic belief plays a significant yet seldom discussed role in shaping US policies in the Middle East.

Several scholars have studied the political role of conspiracy thinking in the contemporary United States, including Michael Barkun and Robert Alan Goldberg. Scholars Richard Hofstadter and David H. Bennett have penned historic accounts.

Survivalism

Survivalism is an apocalyptic view (with both religious and secular proponents), that advocates gathering and storing large supplies of food, water, and medicine, in anticipation of economic collapse, social unrest, or the Tribulations. Some adherents also purchase gold and other precious metals as a hedge against currency devaluation; and some acquire weapons.

During the administration of President Clinton, at a time of millennial excitement prior to the turn of the calendar for the year 2000, survivalist preparations became a mass phenomenon in the United States. Scholar Philip Lamy studied this, and in 1996 wrote a book on “Millennium Rage: Survivalists, White Supremacists, and the Doomsday Prophecy.” There was a confluence of survivalism, apocalyptic expectation, and conspiracy theories involving liberal subversion and treason. Republican operatives exploited this and helped spread the conspiracy theories into the major corporate media.

Survivalism, often tied to conspiracy theories, became big business and even the History Channel began producing shows speculating about a variety of conspiracies. This continues to this day, and feeds back into the survivalist movement, especially on the website of the Connecticut Survivalist Alliance (CSA). The website of CSA not only stresses survivalism, but also gun ownership and training. The website is awash in racist attacks on President Obama and vile Islamophobic images and text.

People who take their apocalyptic fears seriously can react in three ways:

• Passive: Wait in patience or prayer for the expected confrontation.

• Preparative: Collect supplies and perhaps form groups to resist negative outcomes of the expected confrontation (this is the basis of survivalism).

• Aggressive: Why wait? We must act before it is too late!

The aggressive mode can turn inward, resulting in individual or mass suicides. This is what happened with the Heaven’s Gate group that saw the approaching Hale-Bopp comet as a sign of their apocalyptic transformation into a higher life form. It also was what occurred at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas; but only after US government officials rejected pleas from a number of scholars of apocalyptic thinking that their crude and provocative tactics could lead to many deaths.

Government law enforcement officials have repeatedly misunderstood apocalyptic belief. In Waco and the incident at Ruby Ridge, Idaho, this caused needless deaths. At the same time some government analysts have over-generalized about gun enthusiasts, survivalists, armed militia members, and a variety of right-wing groups in ways that conflate beliefs with methodology and threaten civil liberties -- even using agents provocateurs to encourage illegal planning for violent acts.

Apocalyptic Aggression and Violence

The merger of conspiracism with apocalypticism often generates aggressive forms of dualism.

Apocalyptic Aggression can occur when demonized scapegoats are targeted as enemies of the “common good,” a dynamic that can lead to discrimination and attacks. Apocalyptic fears about impending economic collapse can trigger apocalyptic aggression, although there is not enough information to tie this to the shootings in Connecticut.

The linkages among apocalypticism, masculinist rage, and violence have been studied by scholar Lee Quinby. Scholars Mattia Gardell and Julie Ingersol wrote of this connection in essays on Norwegian terrorist Anders Behring Breivik, who was found sane enough to be convicted. Scholar Mark Juergensmeyer called Breivik a "Christian Terrorist."

Superhero Complex

We need to unpack the concepts of "constitutive rhetoric"; the vilification, demonization, and scapegoating of a named "Other," coded rhetorical incitement by demagogues; the relationship between conspiracism and apocalyptic aggression; and the process of scripted violence by which a leader need not directly exhort violence to create a constituency that hears a call to take action against the named enemy. These processes can and do motivate some individuals to adopt a "superhero complex" which justifies their pre-emptive acts of violence or terrorism to "save society" from imminent threats by named enemies "before it is too late."

I wrote about this at length in “Terrorism, Politics, Mental Illness, and Superhero Complex,” after the mass terrorist shootings at the Colorado theater.

"Terrorists embody a “Superhero Complex….” A number of terrorists in the US fall into that pattern. Stressor factors that can create a Superhero Complex that leads to violence can include zealous political goals, anxiety over changing racial, gender, or religious dynamics, a sense of being persecuted, fear and depression over collapsing economic viability, a belief in conspiracy theories of impending attack by dark forces, or other factors. For Salvi, Loughner, and Breivik, stress was focused on targeted scapegoats by right-wing fearmongering from marginal sources and demonization of liberal ideas.

"The claim of mental illness in a terrorist is often used incorrectly, and sometimes used to dismiss any societal motivating factors in a violent act. Most people who struggle with mental illness do not act out in violence. Some convicted terrorists said to be “obviously” mentally ill do not have a diagnostic condition recognized by the medical community; while juries convict terrorists who display clear signs of mental distress. What if the few terrorists who are mentally ill are like the mine canaries, warning us of something toxic spreading the fumes of anxiety through our society?"


What really happened?

We don't know. We may never know.

We hear from television pundits (with no evidence except the power of their own ego and their delight from basking in their 20 minutes of fame) that Adam may have been motivated by some neo-Freudian Oedipal rage to kill his mother; and then he killed the children in the school because early reports linked her to the school as maybe a substitute teacher. This claim of a tie to the school turned out not to be true.

Can we speculate? Sure. Speculation is protected by the First Amendment. I’m not saying any of this is true. Trust me.

Maybe Adam heard voices from God, a space alien, or other vocal interior commander instructing him to kill his mother and as many students as he could shoot.

Maybe Adam was sparing his mother and the students from the horrors and tortures of Satan's end times attack described in delicious detail by dozens of Christian right conspiracy authors. Maybe it wasn't Satan but Obama ordering jackbooted UN troops to impose tyranny and enslave America-- a theory popular during the militia movement of the 1990s—and carried on today by right-wing (and some left wing) conspiracy cranks. Maybe it was the fear that radical Muslims were about to impose Sharia Law, a bigoted conspiracy spread by Newt Gingrich whose appearance on network television as a commentator is stark evidence of the triumph of commercialism and sensationalism over morality.

Maybe Adam was motivated by the sense of emasculation peddled daily by right-wing television, radio, and Internet celebrities who tell men they have been politically castrated by feminists, and that liberalism is directed by a cadre of Marxist lesbians who have taken over the nation's universities. Is it a coincidence that these superhero complex terrorists are all men?

It is clear that as the television networks gain viewers by broadcasting tragedy porn from outside the school in Connecticut, there is already an attempt to spin the story as a case of mental illness that negates any call for a national conversation on gun control.

We need such a conversation. Just as we need conversations about gender panic and male identity, an issue that has long been with us but which accelerated after the United States lost the war in Vietnam. See, for example, Scholar James William Gibson's "Warrior Dreams: Violence and Manhood in Post-Vietnam America." Scholar Jerry Lembcke has written three volumes about this issue. Both belong on television talking about this tragedy along with the other scholars mentioned in this essay, with their expertise on apocalyptic thinking, conspiracy theories, gender, and violence.
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2012/12/16/123936/05

I think he brings up some good points...

 

[Howey]

This is exactly why the schools should be given back to the state. So those of us who would rather have armed principles and military at our schools can have it, and those who don't can keep worrying about all of the illegal guns still floating around their "gun free" states.

*sniff*

I think I smell Dixie. Did someone step in some Dixie?

 

[SmarterthanYou]

I don't think the answer is to militarize ourselves more than we already are...we'll look like an occupied country. I don't want to live with weapons around me all the time...I don't want it, I don't need it and I don't think the idea is worthy of discussion.

and what gives you any right to enforce those wants on the rest of us?

 

[Bfgrn]

talk about being extreme.....that's you. your issue is that, like apple, you're a statist. you don't trust people so you want the government to control everything. it's the mark of a freedom hating coward. the founders would have killed or exiled you back to england.

Herein lies your problem. None of my views on the 2nd amendment are extreme. I am far to the right of the far left who want to confiscate all firearms.

But there is ZERO moderation in your stance. NONE. You are the farthest extreme on this issue...the absolutist, zealot and slippery slope conspiracy theorist.