I DON'T "BELIEVE" ANY GODS EXIST; I ALSO DON'T "BELIEVE" THERE ARE NO GODS!

Leonthecat said:
PMP has "faith" that 1st century, middle east goat farmer's superstitions were an accurate assessment of the universe, because that is what he was told as a child.
He also has "faith" that Trump is an intelligent conservative.
He has a lot of "faith" and very little else.
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Bingo!

Looks at though you read him loud and clear, Cat. He IS easy to see through!
 
Leonthecat said:
So in your eyes accepting the notion that supernatural beings control your life and your destiny is just a bet?
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Plus that sounded awfully insincere. "Hmm, I don't know for sure if the God everyone talks about is real. But just in case, I'm going to say that I believe so if it *is* true, I'll get some kind of ____. But if it's not true, I'm not out anything." Reminds me a lot of a kid who still believes in Santa but hears kids at school saying Santa isn't real.

What I'd like to know is why a belief in god(s) is always entwined with a belief in an afterlife, in Western religions. Why does there have to be a god in order for some bit of us to continue to exist after the meatspace body is gone?
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
Plus that sounded awfully insincere. "Hmm, I don't know for sure if the God everyone talks about is real. But just in case, I'm going to say that I believe so if it *is* true, I'll get some kind of ____. But if it's not true, I'm not out anything." Reminds me a lot of a kid who still believes in Santa but hears kids at school saying Santa isn't real.

What I'd like to know is why a belief in god(s) is always entwined with a belief in an afterlife, in Western religions. Why does there have to be a god in order for some bit of us to continue to exist after the meatspace body is gone?
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The driving force behind most religion...is an abject fear of death by the adherents, OW.

They are afraid.

That is why the often say that there are no atheists in foxholes. (They think if you are terrified enough...you will accept the idea of a god.)

Also why they claim that on the death bed...people convert.

MY GUESS: The are wrong on those two things MOST of the time.
 
Frank Apisa said:
The driving force behind most religion...is an abject fear of death by the adherents, OW.
They are afraid.
That is why the often say that there are no atheists in foxholes. (They think if you are terrified enough...you will accept the idea of a god.)
Also why they claim that on the death bed...people convert.
MY GUESS: The are wrong on those two things MOST of the time.
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The idea of death is indeed terrifying even for those who are sure there's some sort of afterlife. It just makes sense: an organism that doesn't fear extinction isn't going to last long enough to pass on its genes to the next generation.

As a nurse I've attended the last moments of those passing on; have not seen any sudden conversions. As a human who has had two near-death experiences herself, I can tell you that at those times my only and overwhelming concern was what was going to happen with my children if I didn't make it.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
The idea of death is indeed terrifying even for those who are sure there's some sort of afterlife. It just makes sense: an organism that doesn't fear extinction isn't going to last long enough to pass on its genes to the next generation.

As a nurse I've attended the last moments of those passing on; have not seen any sudden conversions. As a human who has had two near-death experiences herself, I can tell you that at those times my only and overwhelming concern was what was going to happen with my children if I didn't make it.
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That's where it is so different for me,when I had my Epiphany at 26 ,and knew Jesus,YHWH was real and I had eternal life.
My feeling was get me OUT of HERE!
 
Frank Apisa said:
The driving force behind most religion...is an abject fear of death by the adherents, OW.

They are afraid.

That is why the often say that there are no atheists in foxholes. (They think if you are terrified enough...you will accept the idea of a god.)

Also why they claim that on the death bed...people convert.

MY GUESS: The are wrong on those two things MOST of the time.
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" Fear of god" is actually a fear of mortality. The irrational fear of life being over at death can drive many otherwise intelligent people to accept and "believe in" any manner of childish myths and supernatural fantasies and allow themselves to be controlled by charlatans.
It is, the greatest failing of humanity .
 
Leonthecat said:
" Fear of god" is actually a fear of mortality. The irrational fear of life being over at death can drive many otherwise intelligent people to accept and "believe in" any manner of childish myths and supernatural fantasies and allow themselves to be controlled by charlatans.
It is, the greatest failing of humanity .
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"Failing" is a value judgment, but then that's why we're here -- to offer up our judgments. lol

Frank started a similar thread a while back. I posted about what our local indigenous people (the Ojibwe) believe; it corresponds closely to my own personal beliefs. A major figure in their cosmology is Gitchi-Manidoo, Great Spirit to the English-speakers. It isn't really that though; it means more like "great mystery." Almost everything possesses manidoo/spirit/living essence/mystery. The mystery is we cannot fully know this essence because of our minds' limitations. When a person dies her spirit travels to the West and eventually reunites with the spirits of her ancestors/family. It's not a heaven nor a hell, just what happens to the manidoo within us all. Gitchi-Manidoo is not a judge or fatherly presence like Western religions have, nor is it exactly a creator either. This is the extremely simplified explanation; it is far more complex than this.

This cosmology does have the nearly universal belief in some sort of afterlife. As for me, if death of my meatspace body is the end I'm fine with that. If reincarnation is how it works, that's okay too. Heaven and hell, sure, whatever.
 
ThatOwlWoman said:
"Failing" is a value judgment, but then that's why we're here -- to offer up our judgments. lol

Frank started a similar thread a while back. I posted about what our local indigenous people (the Ojibwe) believe; it corresponds closely to my own personal beliefs. A major figure in their cosmology is Gitchi-Manidoo, Great Spirit to the English-speakers. It isn't really that though; it means more like "great mystery." Almost everything possesses manidoo/spirit/living essence/mystery. The mystery is we cannot fully know this essence because of our minds' limitations. When a person dies her spirit travels to the West and eventually reunites with the spirits of her ancestors/family. It's not a heaven nor a hell, just what happens to the manidoo within us all. Gitchi-Manidoo is not a judge or fatherly presence like Western religions have, nor is it exactly a creator either. This is the extremely simplified explanation; it is far more complex than this.

This cosmology does have the nearly universal belief in some sort of afterlife. As for me, if death of my meatspace body is the end I'm fine with that. If reincarnation is how it works, that's okay too. Heaven and hell, sure, whatever.
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Native Americans are just a fallible and wrong about their superstitious beliefs as any other culture.
Born out of ignorance and fear, father figures with supernatural powers are made up and passed down in almost all civilizations to explain what is unknown.
As I said, it is a human failing, not a cultural one, to need this kind of superstition in everyday life.
The Ojibwe are no different.
 
at least agnostics are prepared to admit they don't know what the fuck is going on.......atheists are the real sad lot.....stating that it is irrational to believe something without proof, then asserting there ARE NO gods........
 
Leonthecat said:
Native Americans are just a fallible and wrong about their superstitious beliefs as any other culture.
Born out of ignorance and fear, father figures with supernatural powers are made up and passed down in almost all civilizations to explain what is unknown.
As I said, it is a human failing, not a cultural one, to need this kind of superstition in everyday life.
The Ojibwe are no different.
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We're all just ppl. But as I pointed out, they don't have a father/mother-figure deity like Western religions. There is a definite belief in an afterlife though, common to most faiths.
 
PostmodernProphet said:
at least agnostics are prepared to admit they don't know what the fuck is going on.......atheists are the real sad lot.....stating that it is irrational to believe something without proof, then asserting there ARE NO gods........
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Some of the most moral and happy people I know are atheists.
The sad lot are those who can never accept their own mortality, like a child that can never grow up.
 
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ThatOwlWoman said:
We're all just ppl. But as I pointed out, they don't have a father/mother-figure deity like Western religions. There is a definite belief in an afterlife though, common to most faiths.
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Gitchi-Manidoo, Great Spirit, God. All variations on the same theme offering a magical afterlife in exchange for compliance to the supersticion.
It's really just a new world iteration of the same fallabilties exhibited by all religions.
 
Belief in God is something you have to see both within, and outside yourself. I'm not like some Christians that feel they need to convert people. I find that a nutty idea, as like I said you have to understand it through your own perception to truly understand it. People trying to tell you how they see won't help, and can create aversions to the very idea, so I won't even try.
 
OODA said:
Francis is clearly confused here. LOL
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Right said:
Why would Jeb be flying the flag of Southern Democrats? Hillary had one in her office, back when it was fashionable.
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