Is It Time To Take Up Arms?

Clark County (las vegas)Commissioner Tom Collins also supports Bundy.

“The U.S. government has perpetrated a bigger fraud on people over those tortoises than Al Capone did selling swampland in Miami."
 
SmilinJack said:
Clark County (las vegas)Commissioner Tom Collins also supports Bundy.

“The U.S. government has perpetrated a bigger fraud on people over those tortoises than Al Capone did selling swampland in Miami."
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Nothing but hyperbole from those supporting this terrorist.
 
putsometrebleinit said:
Ahhhh the good ole Scandinavian socialist model argument. I think that it would be better to say that they do well despite socialism, not because of it. High taxes and an extensive welfare state don't exactly make them socialist. The Scandinavian countries have just as much, if not more market freedom than we do in the United States with very similar government spending with regards to the GDP.

When you look at their average gross and net incomes they all fall short of the US as well. And since there is a big difference in the population of the United States and these nations it would do better to compare individual states with these countries, and the Scandinavian countries would rank among the poorest States if they were a part of the United States when looking at per capita GDP.

Another factor that comes into play is the demographics of the countries. The Scandinavian nations have a highly homogenous population compared to the United States and there have been plenty of studies supporting the fact that high immigration rates have an effect on poverty rates.

And it will be interesting to see how these countries fare when the declining working population finally hits bottom because Denmark is already facing issues with that as well as some of those other countries you listed.

And if welfare produced prosperity then we should have no issues with poverty at all considering the trillions of dollars spent since the war on poverty started but the fact is that poverty has remained relatively flat while welfare spending has risen. The answer is to stimulate economic growth with a truly free market rather than let the government have its hand in everything and tax us to death.
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Lol, this is such a conservative response. The first thing you mentioned is market freedom, but I don't consider that it trumps other issues. Example, Singapore has the most open, pro-business economy in the world yet it's coupled with an extremely repressive government and a lousy human rights record.

I checked unemployment rates of Scandinavian countries: Denmark 6.7; Finland 8.1; Sweden 7.9; Norway 3.4. Those numbers average to 6.53 which is slightly below the US unemployment rate of 6.7.

I checked the best Work-Life balance of the countries in post 42 and the Scandinavian countries all placed high. I checked the happiness rate of those countries and the Scandinavian countries placed high on that list also.

Some of the world's healthiest countries include Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Canada, and the Netherlands.

The Scandinavian population may not have the average gross/net incomes of the US but they certainly appear to make the most of what they have and to be satisfied with it. It doesn't seem that money correlates with happiness in those countries.

The bottom line is that people can be perfectly happy and content within a socialist system and not necessarily be envious of our system. Also, acknowledging the positives of a socialist system doesn't automatically translate to criticism of a capitalist system, which is what so many seem to think, especially cons.
 
Sardonic said:
29% polled believe armed rebellion is necessary, that's about the same number of people who support the Te Party.

Do you think that the full 29% would take up arms against the government and their fellow citizens?

I don't. I think a lot of those people are talk and no walk.
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Strictly speaking they wouldn't have to. War, and rebellion, are far more than picking up guns and fighting.
 
christiefan915 said:
Lol, this is such a conservative response. The first thing you mentioned is market freedom, but I don't consider that it trumps other issues. Example, Singapore has the most open, pro-business economy in the world yet it's coupled with an extremely repressive government and a lousy human rights record.

I checked unemployment rates of Scandinavian countries: Denmark 6.7; Finland 8.1; Sweden 7.9; Norway 3.4. Those numbers average to 6.53 which is slightly below the US unemployment rate of 6.7.

I checked the best Work-Life balance of the countries in post 42 and the Scandinavian countries all placed high. I checked the happiness rate of those countries and the Scandinavian countries placed high on that list also.

Some of the world's healthiest countries include Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Canada, and the Netherlands.

The Scandinavian population may not have the average gross/net incomes of the US but they certainly appear to make the most of what they have and to be satisfied with it. It doesn't seem that money correlates with happiness in those countries.

The bottom line is that people can be perfectly happy and content within a socialist system and not necessarily be envious of our system. Also, acknowledging the positives of a socialist system doesn't automatically translate to criticism of a capitalist system, which is what so many seem to think, especially cons.
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It also fails to mention that, aside from Canada, if you combined the populations of every country on that list they would be about the same size as 1 or 2 states in America. Or the fact that their defense spending is entirely subsudized by us. Or ethnic homogeniousness. So, ya know, not an accurate comparision.
 
christiefan915 said:
Lol, this is such a conservative response. The first thing you mentioned is market freedom, but I don't consider that it trumps other issues. Example, Singapore has the most open, pro-business economy in the world yet it's coupled with an extremely repressive government and a lousy human rights record.

I checked unemployment rates of Scandinavian countries: Denmark 6.7; Finland 8.1; Sweden 7.9; Norway 3.4. Those numbers average to 6.53 which is slightly below the US unemployment rate of 6.7.

I checked the best Work-Life balance of the countries in post 42 and the Scandinavian countries all placed high. I checked the happiness rate of those countries and the Scandinavian countries placed high on that list also.

Some of the world's healthiest countries include Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Canada, and the Netherlands.

The Scandinavian population may not have the average gross/net incomes of the US but they certainly appear to make the most of what they have and to be satisfied with it. It doesn't seem that money correlates with happiness in those countries.

The bottom line is that people can be perfectly happy and content within a socialist system and not necessarily be envious of our system. Also, acknowledging the positives of a socialist system doesn't automatically translate to criticism of a capitalist system, which is what so many seem to think, especially cons.
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First of all.....Any nation not saddled with a huge parasitic minority aka instead having a predominantly homogenous population has a big economic advantage as previously mentioned by another poster.

This is a factor that increases all the negative stats in America....the crime rate, the fact that we are about #27 in terms of i.q., the poverty rate etc. and so on and so forth.

Some real truth about the scandanavian countries: http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/steven-plaut/does-scandinavian-socialism-work/
 
Jarod said:
Military snipers held this guys family at gunpoint?

It seems to me the Fed had the right to remove this guys cattle off their land. Now if an altercation occurred where his family tried to stop them... and guns were involved, Id have to see the facts to see who was to blame.
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Excuse me... I should remember you never hold a conversation unless you are the one using descriptive phrases... I should have said armed agents seizing cattle was not the appropriate response, nor was locking people away from filming the seizure. Apparently the BLM realized this eventually and agreed with me. It gave Clive Bundy the appearance of a "victim"... You can pretend that armed men taking your stuff would be okay with you... Nobody said there was an altercation, that is your pretense.
 
ZappasGuitar said:
Bundy has thumbed his nose at the rule of law for 20+ years now.

The time for lien has come and gone.
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Not really. What the government ineptly attempted was to serve just such a lien. To seize property in payment of fees. The problem was the picturesque scene with the whole armed agents and the "first Amendment zones" making the current anti Fed groups get all hot and bothered. They did it poorly, and wound up looking bad. At this time they aren't even pretending they care about the turtles that they used as an excuse to raise the grazing fees that started this whole mess (in the stories they pretend they are taxes, but they aren't... they are grazing fees). That breed of turtle is now being killed on the land they actually set aside because there are simply too many of them. Endangered species.. rubbish.
 
Jarod said:
It seems to me the Federal Govt. is within its rights to try to move this cattle off its land, with force if necessary.
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The problem was the show of force simply made it look like what it was... too much response way too late.
 
Jarod said:
The BLM had a court order allowing them to impound the cattle...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.ph...ates_v_Bundy_Court_Order_July_2013.pdf&page=5
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Again... Clive stated this:

“I love you people. And I love this land, and I love freedom and liberty,” Bundy said. “I know without doubt that our Constitution didn’t provide for anything like the federal government owning this land, and so when I pay my grazing fees—if I owe any grazing fees—I will sure pay it to the right landlord, and that will be to Clark County, Nevada.”

The easiest method of collection would be to simply allow, as they agreed to in 1998 for the grazing fees for that area, the state of Nevada to collect their fees for them.
 
BTW- None of this should be taken as an endorsement of Bundy. I think he's not quite all there... The BLM has been around all his life and he paid the grazing fees all the way up until turtle time. He doesn't merit much of my sympathy. My point is there are better ways to collect than to spend three times what is owed you to do it allowing the person who owes the money to look like a victim, and none of them include armed agents.
 
Damocles said:
BTW- None of this should be taken as an endorsement of Bundy. I think he's not quite all there... The BLM has been around all his life and he paid the grazing fees all the way up until turtle time. He doesn't merit much of my sympathy. My point is there are better ways to collect than to spend three times what is owed you to do it allowing the person who owes the money to look like a victim, and none of them include armed agents.
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I think it's good that the Feds got some actual resistence, merited or not.
 
Jarod said:
Most of what Damocles wrote appears to be untrue.

I have been reading up on the issue. This rancher guy has lost every Court Case he was involved with regarding this issue. The Federal Government won an injunction requiring this man remove his cattle, and if he did not remove them, he was to be fined $200 a day for every head that remained on the Federal property.

That was more than 15 years ago. The Federal Government is charged with enforcing the orders of the Court, and is entitled to remove cattle illegally grazing on its land if they so chose.

The only armed standoff that took place was when this man, and his armed family seized a highway and refused to allow traffic to pass. Traffic was backed up miles in each direction. The Feds again backed off and agreed to not remove the cattle at that time, simply to diffuse the situation.

I cant imagine how quickly I would be shot dead by state and local police, if my family and I engaged in an armed take over of a local highway.

So... Damocles...

Are you going to drop in and make false statements, or are you willing to come here and try to defend your stance on this issue?

I suspect you know reason and logic is on the side of the Federal Government on this one, so you are simply going to sit back and take pop shots.
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If this clown Bundy was a Liberal, every single JPP Rightie would be wailing and lamenting about how he was just another "Liberal Tax Cheat" and we'd never hear the end of it.

Since he's a Conservative and a fellow gun nut, they have no problem with him breaking the law.
 
Sardonic said:
Ancestral rights? How can they claim that when they have only been there for such a short time and the Feds were there before them and Nevada gave the Feds rights to those lands to become a State. They thought it was a good deal at the time! lol
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Answer?

They CAN'T.

But watch the usual crowd of conservative partisan hacks try and do so anyway.
 
SmilinJack said:
If it were not for the absolute Stupidity of the BLM (surrounding a man's home with snipers)this would never have made the news.....the heavy handed nazi like approach by the BLM was what generated the protest. Deal wid it chump.
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If the man and his family hadn't IGNORED 20+ years worth of court orders and paid the taxes he agreed to pay when he signed the agreement with the BLM, then none of this would be happening.

Unfortunately you think it's acceptable for an American to just IGNORE any law he doesn't like.
 
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