It Begins: Journalists start admitting Trump-Russia conspiracy was a fabricated lie

mueller has nothing.

You dodged the questions. Care to try again?

How so? You're aware of the infamous Trump Tower meeting, right? You know that it was attended by three of the top people in Trump's campaign, right? You're aware that we have documentary evidence proving that at the time they agreed to the meeting, they knew they'd be meeting with people acting as Russian agents, expressly for the purpose of receiving information as part of the Russian government's efforts on behalf of the Trump campaign, right? If that doesn't meet the definition of collusion, what definition are you using, exactly?
 
How so? You're aware of the infamous Trump Tower meeting, right? You know that it was attended by three of the top people in Trump's campaign, right? You're aware that we have documentary evidence proving that at the time they agreed to the meeting, they knew they'd be meeting with people acting as Russian agents, expressly for the purpose of receiving information as part of the Russian government's efforts on behalf of the Trump campaign, right? If that doesn't meet the definition of collusion, what definition are you using, exactly?

how about this definition, nut-bag..... hiring a foreign agent to drum up a dossier so one can obtain a FISA warrant to spy on a political opponent?
 
how about this definition, nut-bag..... hiring a foreign agent to drum up a dossier so one can obtain a FISA warrant to spy on a political opponent?

Getin, Oneuli is one of the most intelligent and reasonable contributors in this forum. There is no reason to call her a nut-bag.
 
how about this definition..... hiring a foreign agent to drum up a dossier so one can obtain a FISA warrant to spy on a political opponent?

If collusion were defined that way, then it wouldn't be a very useful word, would it? It would be impossible to collude in any country besides the US, in any era before FISA, and in any context other than politics. How about you give it another try? Can you think of a serious definition of the word that does not encompass what the Trump campaign did? Good luck!
 
Yes. An agent is, by definition "a person who acts on behalf of another person or group." Veselnitskaya was known to be acting on behalf of the Russian government, and thus was known to be a Russian agent, at the time.
there is specific terminology when speaking of Russian agents as being part of
Russian Intelligence services ( GRU) or Internal services (FSB).

If you want to say she was an "agent" like attorneys are sometimes agents of a corporation -
OK fine -but make the distinction from



Collusion is "a secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others." In this case, it was definitely secret, it was definitely cooperation, and it was directed at receiving valuable information for a political campaign from a foreign government (it's illegal under US campaign finance law to receive anything of value for a campaign from a foreigner). Using standard definitions, it was definitely collusion. But, if you have some other definition of collusion you're working with, I'd be interested to know what it is, specifically.
you and I both know there is no legal term for collusion.
Mueller is not looking for "collusion" ( although nothing would surprise me with his limitless prob)-
he's looking for a conspiracy. That has to have a corrupt quid pro quo -which does not exist here

Opposition research can, of course, be a campaign violation, when it's a thing of value provided by a foreign government to assist a campaign.

Think of it this way: Would it be illegal if the Clinton campaign had purchased hundreds of reams of paper from a Venezuelan-government-run business, at market prices, to print campaign literature on? No, it wouldn't, since in that case it was just an ordinary market transaction, and the national source of the commodity makes no difference. But what if the Venezuelan government had given the Clinton campaign hundreds of thousands of dollars of paper free of charge, in order to help her win the campaign? Well, now it's a campaign finance violation, since that's functionally no different than if they'd just handed her the money and she later bought the paper from elsewhere.

In the same sense, if the Trump team paid someone to do opposition research, at free market prices, that wouldn't be a campaign finance violation, regardless of the nationality of the worker. But if the Russian government DONATED that valuable opposition research to the Trump campaign, in order to help him win his campaign, that's a campaign violation. That's what the Trump campaign was conspiring to do: to meet secretly with agents of the Putin regime in order to solicit valuable donations of opposition information to the campaign, as part of Russia's efforts to get Trump elected. That was a campaign violation. And it was collusion.

I can't follow that fairy tale of "what ifs". CFR require monetary or "in kind" donations to be disclosed
That does not apply here
 
did ther FISA mention Carter was a UC ?

Much of the released FISA application was blacked out but why would they bring up the case in which Carter testified if they weren't revealing he worked for the FBI.

that's certainly part of it but it's also layers of verification -which Comey himself said wasn't done
since Steele was only
OK. Point to the specific part of the Wood's procedure you think wasn't followed. The Wood's procedure requires there be 3 levels of the FBI that look at the application.

Nowhere in the Wood's procedure are the words "layers of verification" used.

Talking out of your ass doesn't make anything a violation of Wood's procedures. FACTS are required to show that such a thing occurred. Taking Comey's comments out of context and then comparing his comments to your made up understanding of what the Wood's procedure involves isn't evidence of failures by the FBI. It is evidence of you failing to do any due diligence.
 
how about this definition, nut-bag..... hiring a foreign agent to drum up a dossier so one can obtain a FISA warrant to spy on a political opponent?

It’s astounds me that they would cry foul over a meeting where Junior *would think* he was going to get dirt from Russians and not even blink at the DNC *actually getting* dirt from Russians via Steele.
 
Much of the released FISA application was blacked out but why would they bring up the case in which Carter testified if they weren't revealing he worked for the FBI.
english please


OK. Point to the specific part of the Wood's procedure you think wasn't followed. The Wood's procedure requires there be 3 levels of the FBI that look at the application.

Nowhere in the Wood's procedure are the words "layers of verification" used.

Talking out of your ass doesn't make anything a violation of Wood's procedures. FACTS are required to show that such a thing occurred. Taking Comey's comments out of context and then comparing his comments to your made up understanding of what the Wood's procedure involves isn't evidence of failures by the FBI. It is evidence of you failing to do any due diligence.
each level has to swear to it's accuracy -not just some data base search you mentioned.
How can they swear to something unverified?
why are Comey's statements out of context? that is what he was referring to.

I've gone over this 100 times, i'm not going to do it over and over
Steele is unverified including the sections about Page.
 
to get access to Pages contacts, but also from the article:
~~

The entire FISA Title I surveillance authority over Carter Page was cover, most likely retroactive cover, for the DOJ and FBI conducting surveillance on the Trump campaign.

Do you always make up so much shit?

A FISA warrant does not authorize surveillance of US citizens who are contacts of someone subject to a FISA warrant. It allows surveillance of the person subject to the FISA warrant. There is no such thing as retroactive cover for a warrant. Surveillance under a warrant can only occur after the warrant is issued.

A FISA warrant authorizing surveillance of Page does not authorize the FBI to surveil the activities of US citizens who are not currently in in the presence of or conversing with Carter Page.

What you are suggesting is not a violation of application for FISA warrant but a violation of Constitutional rights of US Citizens by surveilling them without authorization. Do you have any evidence to support this allegation? Until you do have evidence, you are only promoting an outlandish conspiracy theory.
 
Always the word-gamer, Frankie lol.

Ok, the *most plausible* explanation *given the facts at hand* for the non-charge of Carter Page is that he committed no crime and that, contrary to the claims in the Dossier, he was not a Russian agent. If you want to believe otherwise, then you have to explain why Mullet is wasting time with Page instead of charging him and then squeezing him to get to Trump.
Let's examine your logic. You allege that if someone isn't charged with a crime in a given time frame then they committed no crime.
If we apply that logic universally, then Hillary Clinton was guilty of no crime. James Comey is guilty of no crime. No one in the FBI is guilty of a crime. The list goes on and on.

The reality is that not being charged is only evidence that they haven't been charged which could be for any one of a number of reasons.
1. They might not have committed the crime.
2. The prosecutor has already charged them and it is under seal.
3. The prosecutor is still collecting evidence before they charge them.
4. They committed the crime but there isn't enough evidence to charge them.
5- 20 Lot's of ludicrous reasons such as a.) The President ordered the prosecutor to not charge them. b.) The deep state is protecting them.


And let’s the drop the pretense that this is anything other than a ploy to get to Trump. Nobody cares about Carter Page.

Will you accept the most plausible explanation or continue to make lame excuses instead?
Your explanation is hardly the most plausible since everyone charged with a crime was at one point not charged with that crime.
 
Let's examine your logic. You allege that if someone isn't charged with a crime in a given time frame then they committed no crime.
If we apply that logic universally, then Hillary Clinton was guilty of no crime. James Comey is guilty of no crime. No one in the FBI is guilty of a crime. The list goes on and on.

The reality is that not being charged is only evidence that they haven't been charged which could be for any one of a number of reasons.
1. They might not have committed the crime.
2. The prosecutor has already charged them and it is under seal.
3. The prosecutor is still collecting evidence before they charge them.
4. They committed the crime but there isn't enough evidence to charge them.
5- 20 Lot's of ludicrous reasons such as a.) The President ordered the prosecutor to not charge them. b.) The deep state is protecting them.



Your explanation is hardly the most plausible since everyone charged with a crime was at one point not charged with that crime.

It makes no sense to charge Page, but keep it sealed, when Mullet would charge Trump’s gardener if he thought he could be squeezed.

That’s more like implausible. I could go through your whole list but they’re all *less plausible* than the mere fact Carter Page is innocent because Mullet shot a blank.
 
Do you always make up so much shit?

A FISA warrant does not authorize surveillance of US citizens who are contacts of someone subject to a FISA warrant. It allows surveillance of the person subject to the FISA warrant. There is no such thing as retroactive cover for a warrant. Surveillance under a warrant can only occur after the warrant is issued.

A FISA warrant authorizing surveillance of Page does not authorize the FBI to surveil the activities of US citizens who are not currently in in the presence of or conversing with Carter Page.

What you are suggesting is not a violation of application for FISA warrant but a violation of Constitutional rights of US Citizens by surveilling them without authorization. Do you have any evidence to support this allegation? Until you do have evidence, you are only promoting an outlandish conspiracy theory.
are you always this stupidly argumentative - looks like it so far!

we KNOW WTF a FISA is -what was being discussed is WHY it was issued.
a very plausible reason is to give cover for the FBI counterintelligence investigation.

also once Pages contacts were searched ( Email addys, etc) that gives them a back door into others not directly named, but were part of the campaign.
Do i need to spell it out further / They look at all of Pages activities, and they get ancillary looks
into who he was in touch with as part of surveilling Page
 
Opposition research is not an in kind campaign violation either

Paying for opposition research and listing it in your FEC documents is not a violation.

Accepting or attempting to accept something of value from a foreigner by a campaign is a violation of the law.

If opposition research has no value why do campaigns typically pay for opposition research?
If we use Occam's razor, the likeliest solution is that because campaigns pay for opposition research then opposition research has value.
 
Paying for opposition research and listing it in your FEC documents is not a violation.

Accepting or attempting to accept something of value from a foreigner by a campaign is a violation of the law.

If opposition research has no value why do campaigns typically pay for opposition research?
If we use Occam's razor, the likeliest solution is that because campaigns pay for opposition research then opposition research has value.
wrong again.
"something of value" has to be "IN KIND" that is of a monentary value.

That means the transaction itself has to be something in kind -and in this case ( Trump Tower)
there was no paid for opposition research anyways.

you are becoming a trollish pest.
 
english please
It was English. Silly me for not putting it in simple phrases my audience could understand.
A good part of the FISA application was redacted and blacked out so it could not be read by the public.
Of the parts that were not redacted the sealed complaint against Buryakov and Sporyshev is mentioned.
The 3 pages prior to that section were redacted.
Page testified to Congress he agreed to provide support to the FBI against the Russians in 2015 in the case against Buryakov and Sporyshev.
Being an undercover agent for the FBI against a foreign government is classified information.
Classified information is redacted in documents released to the public.
The most likely conclusion is that in the 3 redacted pages the FBI revealed classified information to the court about how Page worked for the FBI.

each level has to swear to it's accuracy -not just some data base search you mentioned.
How can they swear to something unverified?
Now you are getting closer to what the Wood's procedure requires. It requires they "swear to the accuracy" of the FISA application. They don't "swear" to have verified every allegation in the applications. For instance, if they reference a newspaper article they are "swearing" that the article was in a newspaper. They are not "swearing" that they verified the story by interviewing the journalist and his sources.

why are Comey's statements out of context? that is what he was referring to.
The Wood's procedure states that the information contained in a FISA application is often well outside the knowledge of a headquarters supervisor so that supervisor relies on the accuracy of the field office. The Wood's procedure is in place to ensure provide accuracy in 3 areas. The Wood's procedure concludes that the Headquarters supervisor is confirming that anything he doesn't know personally went through the Wood's procedure to ensure accuracy. Nowhere does it require that any supervisor verify any or every fact in a FISA application.
I would tell you to read the Wood's procedure for yourself but it is written in English which you seem to have a problem with. Let me know if you need me to explain it using simpler words.

I've gone over this 100 times, i'm not going to do it over and over
Steele is unverified including the sections about Page.
Your argument is still asinine and will always be asinine. (Oops. Asinine" means silly for us adults.) The FBI stated that they have used Steele in the past. They stated that his information has proved reliable in the past. They stated that the document he provided was created for a political campaign. Those facts were all accurate as required by the Wood's procedure.

The standard of verification you are requiring is nonsense and would mean no warrant could ever be issued. Let me give you another example. Let's say a citizen says they saw a black car drive by their house at 12:30AM. Can you tell me how the FBI would verify that it really happened before they could include it in a FISA application?
 
It makes no sense to charge Page, but keep it sealed, when Mullet would charge Trump’s gardener if he thought he could be squeezed.

That’s more like implausible. I could go through your whole list but they’re all *less plausible* than the mere fact Carter Page is innocent because Mullet shot a blank.

Because it makes no sense to you doesn't mean it isn't likely or is less plausible than the other likely reasons. All it means is you have reached your conclusion and are willing to discard any other likely possibilities because they don't support your conclusion.
 
no it's not. and don't make drive by statements without backing up your charges

Occam's razor requires that one solution have fewer assumptions than other solutions.

There are at least 3 other possible solutions that have the same number of assumptions therefore you can't chose one and claim it is correct because of Occam's razor. Ergo, you used Occam's razor incorrrectly.
 
Paying for opposition research and listing it in your FEC documents is not a violation.

Accepting or attempting to accept something of value from a foreigner by a campaign is a violation of the law.

If opposition research has no value why do campaigns typically pay for opposition research?
If we use Occam's razor, the likeliest solution is that because campaigns pay for opposition research then opposition research has value.

There’s two problems with your thinking here.

The obvious one is assigning value to information. Apparently, there’s no slippery legal slope the left won’t traverse in order to ‘stop Trump’. Say a foreign national is hired by a campaign and the foreign worker offers helpful ‘information’ to the candidate? Are they now going to be required by law to report it—even if the foreign worker mentions something in passing that the candidate picks up on and finds useful.

Does the metaphor ‘opening a can of worms’ mean anything to you?

The second is the First Amendment: verbally transmitting information is a form of speech—it IS speech lol. Foreign nationals—especially, when they are on our soil, should be allowed to speak freely on any subject; and you or I should be able to listen to what they are saying without fear of legal ramifications—even if they are talking about dirt on Hillary.

Good luck getting your legal theory past SCOTUS.
 
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