It Begins: Journalists start admitting Trump-Russia conspiracy was a fabricated lie

which did not happen...

It did. Were you unaware that the top people in the Trump campaign agreed to meet with agents of the Russian government expressly for the purpose of obtaining valuable information as part of the Russian government's efforts to get Donald Trump elected? If so, then you're aware that it did, in fact, happen.


You are functionally illiterate if you think so. My ten-year-old niece could have answered that question correctly and you can't.
 
It did. Were you unaware that the top people in the Trump campaign agreed to meet with agents of the Russian government expressly for the purpose of obtaining valuable information as part of the Russian government's efforts to get Donald Trump elected? If so, then you're aware that it did, in fact, happen.



You are functionally illiterate if you think so. My ten-year-old niece could have answered that question correctly and you can't.

sorry you are too stupid to realize how wrong you are.....
 
It did. Were you unaware that the top people in the Trump campaign agreed to meet with agents of the Russian government expressly for the purpose of obtaining valuable information as part of the Russian government's efforts to get Donald Trump elected? If so, then you're aware that it did, in fact, happen.



You are functionally illiterate if you think so. My ten-year-old niece could have answered that question correctly and you can't.

sorry you are too stupid to realize how wrong you are.....
 
sorry you are too stupid to realize how wrong you are.....

As always, the ignorance is yours. Manafort was providing Ukraine with polling data to be given to Russia. It allowed Russian hackers to pinpoint those who were most vulnerable to their propaganda. The Trump campaign was doing information sharing with foreign countries which is against the law. Do you ever get anything right? I am still waiting for the first.
 
As always, the ignorance is yours. Manafort was providing Ukraine with polling data to be given to Russia. It allowed Russian hackers to pinpoint those who were most vulnerable to their propaganda. The Trump campaign was doing information sharing with foreign countries which is against the law. Do you ever get anything right? I am still waiting for the first.

that was the first claim of the NYT, now they say no......now they say he wanted to but it didn't happen......the Trump campaign shared nothing.......are you still dumber than shit?.......
 
It was illegal to solicit anything of value from a foreign national for a political campaign, which is what the meeting was expressly for. But, even if you weren't wrong about that, your point would still not be responsive. Reread the definition I provided. Is illegality a necessary element of it?

What did he do back in 2006?

You’ve been misled on the Trump Tower meeting.

The First Amendment guarantees freedom of association—even with Russians before an election. Anyone who wants to try and *stretch* campaign law references to ‘things of value’ to information received in a meeting—will run smack into the First Amendment.

Had Junior offered something of value for the information [hint: that’s the only way any ‘value’ can be assigned to information, anyway] then that might be a different matter.

In fact, it’s entirely plausible that Junior was lured into the meeting for that precise reason: the Russian lawyer is associated with Fusion GPS; Fusion needed to put some meat the collusion fairy tale; so why not try and entice Junior into offering a quid pro quo to the Russians? Makes perfect sense. It’s just one reason another SP is desperately called for.

At any rate, all of this ‘law-stretching’ just to nail Trump is unhealthy for the republic.
 
The First Amendment guarantees freedom of association—even with Russians before an election.

Nobody has claimed otherwise. But campaign law clearly makes it a crime to solicit anything of value from a foreign national for purposes of a campaign, and the purpose of that meeting was expressly to solicit valuable information from the Russian government for purposes of the campaign. At this point, the Trump-apologist's only real defense is to claim that there is a secret part of the law that says "thing of value" cannot include valuable information.

Now, that's not to say the Trump legal team can't put forward the novel idea that the law is unenforceable against them because of the first amendment. And with the Supreme Court in the control of far-right-wing judges, they might even win. But step one is to indict them for it and force them to offer that as an affirmative defense, so it can be ruled on.

Of course, if the Supreme Court comes up with an unprecedented activist ruling to redefine the first amendment to allow this, it's basically game over for keeping foreign influence out of our elections. Once you have an exception that says foreign governments can assist American political campaigns as much as they like so long as they only provide "information," that exception wholly consumes the rule, since practically everything that's needed to run a campaign is information. At that point, the foreign governments could effectively just act as information service outsourcers for the campaigns of their choosing. They could do all the work of polling, building voter databases, designing campaign ads, writing speeches, hosting cloud services, doing campaign strategy, conducting debate prep, researching position papers, and so on. As long as it's "just information," it would all be legal. And since the lion's share of a campaign's expenses are outsourceable as information services, you may as well not have a rule against foreign involvement in the first place.

Had Junior offered something of value for the information [hint: that’s the only way any ‘value’ can be assigned to information, anyway] then that might be a different matter.

If that's how it worked, then foreign governments could donate anything they want to a campaign. "Hey, here's a private plane to fly you around the country." As long as the campaign didn't offer anything of value in exchange for it, then it would be said to have no value and would be allowed. For very obvious reasons, that's not how it works.

At any rate, all of this ‘law-stretching’ just to nail Trump is unhealthy for the republic.

Again, you're entirely wrong. The threat to the Republic, here is the law-compressing favored by the Trump apologists. They are willing to fold, spindle, and mutilate any law to the extent necessary to say that anything Trump did must be legal. If that means inventing a new rule that says information has no value for statutory purposes, that's just what they'll do, because their loyalty is to Trump, not our nation.
 
You’ve been misled on the Trump Tower meeting.

The First Amendment guarantees freedom of association—even with Russians before an election. Anyone who wants to try and *stretch* campaign law references to ‘things of value’ to information received in a meeting—will run smack into the First Amendment.

LOL! Where'd you study law? Pep Boys? The 1st Amendment had jack shit to do with that meeting if it was for illegal purposes, sport.
Had Junior offered something of value for the information [hint: that’s the only way any ‘value’ can be assigned to information, anyway] then that might be a different matter.

In fact, it’s entirely plausible that Junior was lured into the meeting for that precise reason: the Russian lawyer is associated with Fusion GPS; Fusion needed to put some meat the collusion fairy tale; so why not try and entice Junior into offering a quid pro quo to the Russians? Makes perfect sense. It’s just one reason another SP is desperately called for.

At any rate, all of this ‘law-stretching’ just to nail Trump is unhealthy for the republic.

Nah. There's no law-stretching going on, nor can you demonstrate otherwise.
 
Nobody has claimed otherwise. But campaign law clearly makes it a crime to solicit anything of value from a foreign national for purposes of a campaign, and the purpose of that meeting was expressly to solicit valuable information from the Russian government for purposes of the campaign. At this point, the Trump-apologist's only real defense is to claim that there is a secret part of the law that says "thing of value" cannot include valuable information.

Now, that's not to say the Trump legal team can't put forward the novel idea that the law is unenforceable against them because of the first amendment. And with the Supreme Court in the control of far-right-wing judges, they might even win. But step one is to indict them for it and force them to offer that as an affirmative defense, so it can be ruled on.

Of course, if the Supreme Court comes up with an unprecedented activist ruling to redefine the first amendment to allow this, it's basically game over for keeping foreign influence out of our elections. Once you have an exception that says foreign governments can assist American political campaigns as much as they like so long as they only provide "information," that exception wholly consumes the rule, since practically everything that's needed to run a campaign is information. At that point, the foreign governments could effectively just act as information service outsourcers for the campaigns of their choosing. They could do all the work of polling, building voter databases, designing campaign ads, writing speeches, hosting cloud services, doing campaign strategy, conducting debate prep, researching position papers, and so on. As long as it's "just information," it would all be legal. And since the lion's share of a campaign's expenses are outsourceable as information services, you may as well not have a rule against foreign involvement in the first place.



If that's how it worked, then foreign governments could donate anything they want to a campaign. "Hey, here's a private plane to fly you around the country." As long as the campaign didn't offer anything of value in exchange for it, then it would be said to have no value and would be allowed. For very obvious reasons, that's not how it works.



Again, you're entirely wrong. The threat to the Republic, here is the law-compressing favored by the Trump apologists. They are willing to fold, spindle, and mutilate any law to the extent necessary to say that anything Trump did must be legal. If that means inventing a new rule that says information has no value for statutory purposes, that's just what they'll do, because their loyalty is to Trump, not our nation.

You’re headed down a slippery slope by assigning ‘value’ to information sharing in a campaign.

Say a Dreamer shares ‘valuable information’ about the border with a democrat during a campaign. Are you prepared to prosecute the democrat for a campaign violation? Somehow, I think not.

And your private plane analogy is amiss: planes have an obvious value as transportation. A foreigner donating office space would be an obvious violation. Information about Hillary’s dealings with the Russians, not so much. In fact, had Junior gone straight to the FBI with it—they would have thanked him and not charged him with anything.

The Trump Tower meeting is a Nothing Burger.
 
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You dodged the question again.

I've carved the answer on your fucking forehead.......not sure what else I can do to satisfy you.......the answer is 1) there has been no collusion under the definition you claim to use......2) even if there was, collusion is not a crime for which the president can be impeached and 3) every other lib'rul has given up hope on "collusion" and has moved on the money laundering, another loser fantasy........
 
even if that were true, no one from the Trump campaign solicited anything.......some Russian tried to solicit Trump's support on an adoption issue......go ahead and charge her with solicitation.........

You really believe that? Wow. It was never adoption unless Putin adopted Trump. That makes sense.
You do know that Trump's people, Manafort for one, provided Ukraine with polling data . That allows them to zero in on those most likely to buy right wing/Russian propaganda like you did. Yep, they were colluding with Russians. Call it conspiring if it allows you to sleep better. But they may be in deep orange shit.
 
You really believe that? Wow. It was never adoption unless Putin adopted Trump. That makes sense.
You do know that Trump's people, Manafort for one, provided Ukraine with polling data . That allows them to zero in on those most likely to buy right wing/Russian propaganda like you did. Yep, they were colluding with Russians. Call it conspiring if it allows you to sleep better. But they may be in deep orange shit.

I think it was Dershowitz who coined the phrase ‘collusion may be a sin but it’s not a crime’ lol.

Assuming, that actually happened, Ukrainians aren’t Russians. Even if it involved Russians, it’s an instance of Manafort sharing intellectual property [in the form of polling data] with foreigners. Unless Manafort came by it dishonestly, I can’t imagine what the crime would be.

Here’s the News Flash: countries meddling in other country’s elections has been going on as long as there have been elections. And your own country is one of the worst offenders.

Also, from a practical standpoint what use would it be anyway? Trying to affect an electoral outcome from Ukraine or Russia would be The Mother of Fool’s Errands. Social media is a veritable sea of misinformation—*without the Russians*.

The Russians aren’t stupid—they know this as well as anyone. You might note they didn’t exactly put a lot of money into it.

The Trump Tower meeting is more fertile ground for potential collusion but none of the facts help your case. Had Junior paid money for *illegally acquired* information on Hillary [and I’m pretty sure Junior would have to know it was illegally acquired] they could nail him for possession of stolen [intellectual] property. Or if Junior knowingly bought classified information from Russians, that would be a crime.

But merely showing up to hear what a Russian has to say about Hillary Clinton is not a crime. It just isn’t.
 
You really believe that? Wow. It was never adoption unless Putin adopted Trump. That makes sense.
You do know that Trump's people, Manafort for one, provided Ukraine with polling data . That allows them to zero in on those most likely to buy right wing/Russian propaganda like you did. Yep, they were colluding with Russians. Call it conspiring if it allows you to sleep better. But they may be in deep orange shit.

it being fact, it makes it easier to believe.....I read the NYT, including the retraction and no one in the Trump campaign gave anyone anything........the only orange shit around here is between a lib'rul's ears......
 
You’re headed down a slippery slope by assigning ‘value’ to information sharing in a campaign.

Obviously not. The idea that information has value is an age-old one that is firmly established in the law. It is, for example, the basis for claiming damages in any number of contractual arrangements. The slippery slope here is the one you're headed down when, for the sake of defending the Trump administration, you want to assert the existence of an invisible clause in campaign finance law that says that a thing of value cannot include valuable information. If we go down that slope then, as I've explained, you may as well not have such laws, since anyone can then spend any amount on any campaign, so long as the services provided are confined to information services.

Say a Dreamer shares ‘valuable information’ about the border with a democrat during a campaign. Are you prepared to prosecute the democrat for a campaign violation? Somehow, I think not.

That depends entirely on the context, obviously. If it's an ordinary exchange of information where the campaign is just asking questions to gather information as ordinarily happens, then it would not be a violation, since it then isn't a donation to the campaign. But picture if, instead, Mexican agents were to contact a Democratic campaign and offer to meet with the Clinton campaign in order to provide valuable information from cyber-espionage, damaging to Donald Trump, expressly as part of the Mexican government's efforts to get Clinton elected. What if the Clinton people were so lacking in patriotism that rather than report that to the FBI, they agreed to the meeting, so they could solicit that valuable donation. Would that be a campaign finance violation? Of course it would.

And your private plane analogy is amiss: planes have an obvious value as transportation

Yes, and information has value, too. Companies spend billions of dollars on R&D for example, where the only product is information. Often the investment dwarfs the cost of buying a whole fleet of planes. But you want to assign the value of $0 to that information.... not because it is remotely sane to do so, but because you think that's the path to excusing the Trump campaign's conduct.

In fact, had Junior gone straight to the FBI with it—they would have thanked him and not charged him with anything.

EXACTLY! In the same way, being offered stolen goods is not a crime, but conspiring to receive stolen goods is. If someone offers to sell you something you know they have no legal right to sell you, and you go to the cops about it, you're simply doing your civic duty. If, instead, you agree to meet with them to arrange for the transfer of the goods, you're committing a felony. What Trump Jr. (and Kushner and Manafort) did was equivalent to arranging to meet with a fence to take possession of stolen goods.

The Trump Tower meeting is a Nothing Burger.

As you know, you will say every single criminal act by Trump in his campaign is a "nothing burger," no matter what, because that's the exact point handed down by the conservative apparatchiks. Let me guess: Trump's conspiracy to pay off Stephanie Clifford and the other sex worker, to protect his campaign, without disclosure (in contravention of campaign finance law) was also a "nothing burger," right?
 
I've carved the answer on your fucking forehead

No. As you're aware (and as everyone who has read the exchange is aware), you've dodged the question every single time and continue to do so.

So, what definition of collusion are you using to say there wasn't collusion? Maybe this time you'll find your courage. Somehow, I doubt it.
 
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