Jobs sent overseas? How did this happen?

[cawacko]

Actually, she had a legitimate question. And remember, I said there were no wrong answers. I think it's a combination of everything that will come out in this thread.

You added that you believe regulations moved our economy from manufacturing to information. (I'm thinking more in line of our economy moving to a service base, but your idea has as much merit.) Do you think changing our economy from manufacturing to information was deliberate? Or could it be the case of some idiot kids finding their daddy's shotgun?

No, regulations didn't cause that. Advances in technology and automation killed a number of manufacturing jobs in this country and the U.S. winning the Cold War along with the growth of China and India brought millions upon millions of workers into the global economy.

 

[reason10]

Average hourly wages have never been higher

That is very true. And yet, liberals are bashing companies for not paying an alleged "Living wage." In the late Sixties, my father's take home pay was $200 a week, which would be considered peanuts today. And we lived a pretty good middle class life.

Just MAYBE, you might have swerved accidentally into FINALLY defining this whole clusterfuck directly. The problem is people are making more money than ever before but they are poor. The standard of living is dropping. The cost of everything is going up.

WHAT HAPPENED?

In my father's time, people thrived on regular wages.

What happened to separate a person's quality of life from the economy? WHY was it necessary to just piss away the manufacturing jobs? Who benefited? And how the hell would that have been good for America.

 

[Damocles]

The iPhones are made in China because they flat couldn't find enough people that have that "in between" education between High School and College.

http://gizmodo.com/5878209/why-apple-doesnt-make-the-iphone-in-america

 

[cawacko]

This is a guy who has built luxury hotels, resorts and golf courses all over the world. Here's a guy who is the landlord of the world's largest bank. Here's a guy who is on a first name basis with most world leaders and the most powerful men in most countries, something our last five presidents did not have.

What has Trump said that would make you think he wants to roll back the advances of technology and globalization? How do you define that anyway? Is globalization necessarily a good thing if it means all cars are made in Japan and all TV sets are made in China? Who wrote those rules?

I'm seeing Trump putting Carl Ichan in charge of China and I'm seeing nothing but good coming from that. Right now, China has lower corporate taxes that the United States. Right now China does not have an inheritance tax. Right now, China has a better economy. It is now a more capitalist nation than America. Tell me again how that's good for us.

Trump's not going to start any world wars. He'd be the last to commit our troops to any fighting that isn't directly in our best interests. By the same token, I also see him CHARGING certain countries for our continued support and military protection. If that's not thinking outside the box, there is no box.

Why would he do that? Why would Trump throw a monkey wrench into the alleged mythical military industrial complex?

You think our past Presidents weren't on first name basis with leaders across the world? And if your argument is prior to going to office well that's the same for Desh with Hillary.

How would Trump put Carl Ichan in charge of China? What exactly do you see Ichan doing with China?

China is not more capitalistic than us. It's still government run companies that dominate. That is not the model we are looking to emulate. Look at the problems they are facing now and heading forward.

Wait, he is going to charge other countries for our protection? Serious? Why do you think we are in those countries? It's for our benefit. Do you think we benefit if we pull out and things go to hell around the world?

 

[reason10]

No, regulations didn't cause that. Advances in technology and automation killed a number of manufacturing jobs in this country and the U.S. winning the Cold War along with the growth of China and India brought millions upon millions of workers into the global economy.

I think I can see the automation bit getting rid of some jobs. But other jobs would have to have been created. A machine can make something, but a human has to operate the machine. A plant cannot be totally robotic.

But let's look at the kind of work being farmed overseas. It's the same job, just being done by countries with a surplus of human capital. Yes, that could be a legitimate reason. The how makes sense, but not the why.

In college I was part of a group that was engaged by a private company to locate it's plant overseas. We went through hell trying to navigate all the red tape, the language barriers of certain countries, the cost of moving equipment, training workers, etc.

WHY would a company do that? Why would a company want to invest extra money in getting managers to learn Chinese in order to hire local Chinese to help train workers? Why would a company spend all the money on building something thousands of miles away on the other side of the world, and then have to spend millions in transporting the products back to our shores, back to the largest market on the planet? Why would a company want to hire any workers but English speaking workers. Why would a company NOT want to be no more than ten hours by semi tractor trailer to its market?

Who benefited from this?

Evince mention regulations. (First intelligent answer I've ever heard from her since I got here.) Maybe she's from the low information crowd that thinks corporations AREN'T regulated enough.

I'm thinking the regulations by our government are a factor. And again, if our parents could have had good lives with just high school diplomas and worked in manufacturing jobs and could have afforded things, what has changed all that today?

And again, there are no wrong answers here. Probably every theory here has some basis in fact.

 

[cawacko]

A simple and easy response is why would someone like Nike pay $25/hr to make their shoes in the U.S. when they can pay someone $1/hr in Vietnam?

Companies offshore if they think it's profitable. They run the numbers first of course.

 

[The Dude]

It's called progress
The rest of the world does the menial jobs
Having to have a tiny bit of training or college is nothing to pay for the much better lives we have now.

 

[reason10]

You think our past Presidents weren't on first name basis with leaders across the world?

Our current president shined the shoes of leaders across the world. That's about all he was good for.

And if your argument is prior to going to office well that's the same for Desh with Hillary.

There is definitely a major difference between the resumes of Hillary and Trump.

How would Trump put Carl Ichan in charge of China? What exactly do you see Ichan doing with China?

I see Ichan convincing China to quit fucking with its currency. I see Ichan negotiating for China to quit its protectionism against our products. And I see him very modestly threatening that country with a tariff, something our Democrat Congressmen would KILL to be able to pull off for their union rep contributors. Mostly, a brilliant businessman like Ichan even showing up in China shows that America is finally taking all of this seriously. Obama put Caroline Kennedy in charge of negotiating with China. He might as well have put Neil Diamond in charge, for all the good she's done.

China is not more capitalistic than us. It's still government run companies that dominate. That is not the model we are looking to emulate. Look at the problems they are facing now and heading forward.

China has a lower corporate tax than America. It has no inheritance tax. And it doesn't have a Gestapo EPA fucking up the advance of business. You're right about China still basically being a communist country. And yet it's moving in a more capitalist direction than we have been under the Kenyan Shoeshine Boy.

Wait, he is going to charge other countries for our protection? Serious? Why do you think we are in those countries? It's for our benefit. Do you think we benefit if we pull out and things go to hell around the world?

It's for our benefit to have soldiers in South Korea, putting their asses on the line? Really? And South Korea gets this wonderful protection while flooding our markets with TV sets, as well as other electronics? I believe a smart negotiator could get a few billion a year from that lucky country. I know for a fact that Saudi Arabia wouldn't have a problem giving us a few billion a year just to maintain the protection we've been giving it for so many years. Those rich mullahs would be totally screwed if we left that rock totally helpless in the path of Isis.

 

[reason10]

A simple and easy response is why would someone like Nike pay $25/hr to make their shoes in the U.S. when they can pay someone $1/hr in Vietnam?

My question, (and really that's the purpose of this thread) is HOW could this have been made possible? America CREATED the technology of the Nike to begin with. How did the country of Apocalypse Now and Full Metal Jacket somehow get those jobs? What kind of business climate enabled that country to be able to offer such cheap labor? How did the far east manage to rip off American technology and knowledge to begin with? And what tax and regulatory nonsense made it profitable for companies to offshore.

You're right about companies running the numbers. But Korea, China and Vietnam didn't just spring out of the ground and become capitalist meccas. Our country did something to drive those plants overseas.

Was it confiscatory taxation? Was it socialist regulation? Was it out-of-control union demands? Was it our currency being rendered worthless by trillions and trillions spent on our welfare state?

I believe these questions are valid because they suggest a path BACK to the economic model we had before the Far East took all our jobs.

Companies offshore if they think it's profitable. They run the numbers first of course.[/QUOTE]

 

[evince]

the founders don't agree with you fool

 

[reason10]

It's called progress
The rest of the world does the menial jobs
Having to have a tiny bit of training or college is nothing to pay for the much better lives we have now.

Apparently we DON'T have better lives. Everything costs more. 100 million people are out of work. That hasn't happened since the Great Depression. We have record numbers of homeless. And the country is $20 TRILLION in the hole.

Right now India has a better economy than the US.

And I'm not necessarily just blaming the Kenyan Shoeshine boy for all of it, although he shoulders a good portion of the blame. The REpublican Congress who didn't stop him from implementing the policies that caused a lot of this shares a lot of that blame.

My question is WHY a miniscule few rich CEOs had to be made richer just to send the menial jobs overseas so that those here without college degrees wound up either starving or languishing at low paying McJobs. It wasn't like that when I was growing up.

 

[reason10]

the founders don't agree with you fool

What have the Founders written that would give you that idea? Are any Founding Fathers writing on this thread?

 

[evince]

That now qualifies as the most intelligent response I've ever seen you make in all the time I've been here.

It's a legitimate question and should not be overlooked.

During the Nixon years, the EPA was formed. The EPA's first secretary once referred to the right of private property as a quaint anachronism, same as the Fifth Amendment. Nixon gave the country wage and price controls, which was a disaster. He took the world off the Bretton Woods gold standard, which reduced the value of a dollar to that of toilet paper.

The Carter years gave us OSHA, the Windfall Profits Tax, etc.

Good things or bad? Hard to say. The EPA has yet to clean a single inch of land, purify even a drop of water or clear the air in any major city. OSHA has made some businesses safe and has driven lawsuits through the roof. The Windfall Profits tax sent oil to record heights, bring the price of a gallon of gasoline up to it's first dollar a gallon. (When I first learned to drive, gasoline as 30 cents a gallon.)

Our corporate taxes are the highest in the civilized world. Is that the reason for what has happened? It could be. Or maybe not. I don't think it's the only factor.

Here's what I do think. A lot of corporate bottom lines were improved by their ability to buy politicians, (and most of those politicians they bought were Democrats.) But regardless of party, since when is it in the best interests of America for jobs to be sent overseas just to pad the bank accounts of some friends of politicians? (If that has happened, and I think to a certain extent it has.)

who raise their taxes

dude


your party is the corporate whore party





the founders dealt with corporations with very heavey hands.




they Fettered them

 

[Celticguy]

BO has increased taxes to the tune of a trillion or more and still runs massive deficits.

 

[evince]

your shits crashed the entire world economy twice in one lieftime

 

[Celticguy]

your shits crashed the entire world economy twice in one lieftime

Which has what to do with offshoring ?
Do try to keep up.

 

[evince]

so crashing the world economy has nothing to do with the world economy?

 

[Celticguy]

so crashing the world economy has nothing to do with the world economy?

And this has what to do with offshoring ? Offshoring means shifting jobs out if the country.

 

[evince]

and world wide crashes dont effect that?

 

[reason10]

who raise their taxes

dude

Well, for the record the Democrat party raised their taxes and gave them a reason to build overseas.

your party is the corporate whore party

Actually, the majority of corporations are donating to the Democrats.

You seem to be living somewhere in 1988. The world has changed a lot since then. Donald Trump is way ahead in the polls because BOTH PARTIES have fucked us.

the founders dealt with corporations with very heavey hands.

Really? The Founders created the EPA? The Income Tax? OSHA? You REALLY think Jimmy Carter was a Founder?