FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
Not true in all isntances. Sometimes adding additional players just sets up additional networks with additional costs and they just form an informal cartel and gouge out anyway.
McCain's Healthcare Tax
- Thread starter LadyT
- Start date
Not true in all isntances. Sometimes adding additional players just sets up additional networks with additional costs and they just form an informal cartel and gouge out anyway.
FUCK THE POLICE
911 EVERY DAY
That's right Dano! Bush was actually a liberal! Up is down, right is left, high is low!
I'm curious as to how much Obama claims we can trim from Medicare and Medicaid as compared to Obama. I don't recall a number approaching $1.3 trillion over 10 years coming from the Obama camp but maybe I am mistaken. I doubt it.
You got any figures from the Obama camp?
By the way, that line you quote is one of the reasons I dislike the article. It provides no support for the assertion whatsoever. I mean, I know McCain claims that to be the case, but I don't necessarily believe it to be true and the article gives me no reason to believe it other than the blanket assertion that it is the case.
Is the 5k credit a tax reduction? or just a reduction in taxable income?
I am also concerned about insurance companies being able to refuse for pre existing conditions. At the very least this would HAVE to have some regulation such as what Massachusetts does with auto insurance. Basically what happens here is all the unwanted drivers are placed into a bucket and distributed pro-rated back to all the insurance companies doing business in MA. And believe me I worked for the largest MA auto insurance company for a couple years who got about 30% of the pro-ration and they were still making money hand over fist. Just not 90% margins.. closer to 50%
Yeah, me.
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The Almighty
RUN the NUMBERS. The numbers work for just about every situation you can imagine... the only ones it might not work for is for those in the highest tax brackets that also have huge insurance plans paid for by their employers. For everyone else, McCains plan would provide them a tax break for at LEAST ten years. Assuming a 10% increase in healthcare costs per year and NO increase in the credits. Obviously both McCain and Obama have talked about a focus on reducing healthcare costs as parts of their plans. So if they can even knock out part of that growth... McCains plan works for even longer.
As for Obama numbers, no, the only thing I saw referrencing that he was planning to do the same was from your article....
"Sen. Obama also would rely on some Medicare savings to pay for his health-care plan, which would offer subsidies to help consumers pay for premiums. The Tax Policy Center estimates that his plan would cost $1.6 trillion over 10 years and cover 34 million more people."
So I do not know what portion of that $1.6 trillion would need to come from medicare/medicaid. If I have time, I will try to go to the TPC website and see if I can find more details. But given the market conditions that may not happen until the weekend.
First of all, you are assuming that everyone keeps their employer provided health insurance. The whole point of the McCain plan is to have employers stop providing health insurance and to move people to the individual markets.
Second, that $1.6 trillion need not come from Medicare/Medicaid. It can come from anywhere. McCain's campaign is saying that he will make up for the $1.3 trillion shortfall by making cuts to Medicare/Medicaid. That doesn't mean Obama has to make cuts there too.
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The Almighty
1) It is a tax credit, not a tax deduction. Thus it is dollar for dollar against taxes you owe.
2) Part of McCains plan is to make plans portable, develop a guaranteed access plan (though this is not very detailed yet) and protect those that have pre-existing conditions from being denied access (again, this portion is alsonot very well defined... but he does recognize this as a problem that needs a solution)
he also wants to allow insurance companies to select the state they want for their home office - states with the least regulations
so you may not get the same coverage but still pay through the nose
so you may not get the same coverage but still pay through the nose
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The Almighty
First, I am not assuming any such thing.
Second, his plan is designed to give employees OPTIONS. Which means it is up to employees whether or not they go with an alternate plan. What employee would CHOOSE to go with a plan that would cost them more money???
Third, I never stated Obama HAD to make cuts there. I was referrencing the fact that your article stated that he also planned to make cuts to the two. McCain doesn't HAVE to make cuts there either. But both realize that there is a lot of waste and fraud within Medicare/Medicaid. They realize that they can very likely cut some funds there without actually cutting benefits. From your article, McCain is focused on taking his cuts from this area. I would assume this is where Obama would target as well. But you are correct... neither HAVE to cut from M&M.
Show me the goods on #2. I mean, those are two very big fucking deals for individuals trying to find insurance in the private markets. You would think that a plan to kick more people to the private markets would at least cover the most glaring problems with the private insurance market. That is doesn't is telling.
McCain doesn't give a shit.
This is all irrelevant. Independent studies are saying it will throw 20 million americans off of employer-based health care. That's a non-starter.
We have seen the collapse of this ideology and Americans do not want to be at the mercy of the free market when it comes to their health care. They know they will have no protections out there.
You act as if you are expert on every single thing, but the fact is, you aren't, and the experts are saying this plan is a really bad one.
This is SS privitazation all over again. You will argue for it, claim that people who disagree with your "facts" don't know what they're talking about, and it too, will go down in a steaming pile of the horseshit used to attempt to sell it.
It's DOA. It will never happen.
Nor should it, as it moves us exactly in the opposite direction of where we should be moving.
And SF - you're not an expert on health care policy. Stop trying to sell yourself as one. What you are is an ideologue, who has not yet figured out that you're not getting this.
It's already been shit-canned.
Rave on. Never gonna change that.
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The Almighty
yes, it is suggesting 20 million leave EMPLOYER based plans. But that does not mean they are becoming uninsured. It means that they are leaving the plans for better options.
The rest of your post is purely emotional bullshit. I never claimed to be an expert on healthcare. I simply refuted those that said this was a tax increase. It is not. That is simply a partisan line that the messiah has sent his disciples out to preach.
If you expect someone to be an expert before taking a position and discussing it, then we may as well all pack up and go home.
Now if you can take your emotional bullshit out of the conversation, then please stay and discuss. Otherwise I'll continue a rationale discussion with Dung and ignore your future posts on the subject.
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The Almighty
http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues/19ba2f1c-c03f-4ac2-8cd5-5cf2edb527cf.htm
"A Specific Plan of Action: Ensuring Care for Higher Risk Patients
John McCain's Plan Cares For The Traditionally Uninsurable. John McCain understands that those without prior group coverage and those with pre-existing conditions have the most difficulty on the individual market, and we need to make sure they get the high-quality coverage they need.
John McCain Will Work With States To Establish A Guaranteed Access Plan. As President, John McCain will work with governors to develop a best practice model that states can follow - a Guaranteed Access Plan or GAP - that would reflect the best experience of the states to ensure these patients have access to health coverage. One approach would establish a nonprofit corporation that would contract with insurers to cover patients who have been denied insurance and could join with other state plans to enlarge pools and lower overhead costs. There would be reasonable limits on premiums, and assistance would be available for Americans below a certain income level.
John McCain Will Promote Proper Incentives. John McCain will work with Congress, the governors, and industry to make sure this approach is funded adequately and has the right incentives to reduce costs such as disease management, individual case management, and health and wellness programs."
Again, I do not think the above is detailed enough to determine if his "plan" would work or not. I would want to see more, because as you stated portability and pre-existing conditions are two HUGE problems to overcome when looking at individual plans.
that said, from what I have seen, I still do not understand where you and Darla think this will FORCE anyone to leave group plans. If you could explain that I would appreciate it.
First, yes you are. You are assessing the value of the tax credit relative to the increase in taxes if your employer continues to provide health insurance. The math doesn't work out quite so well if your employer stops providing health insurance and you have to get insurance through the individual market. $5,000 doesn't quite cut it for a family plan.
Second, the plan is not designed to give employees options. His plan is designed to have individuals buy insurance in the individual markets. The means to achieve that goal is to have employers stop providing health insurance to their employees by taxing it to the tune of $3.6 trillion over 10 years. The design is to make it expensive to provide employees health insurance so employers no longer do it. That's the purpose of the plan.
Third, I realize that neither candidate is required to make cuts to Medicare/Medicaid but the McCain campaign has said that he will cut Medicare and Medicaid to make his plan revenue neutral. The idea that there is $1.3 trillion in waste or fraud in Medicare/Medicaid is laughable. Cutting that much from the programs over a 10 year period would have to include deep benefit cuts. There is just no way around it.
It's not emotional to state the fact this plan is DOA, and you are too much of an ideologue to understand that Americans simply are not clamoring to be thrown into the free market for their health care.
In fact, big majorities of them want government guaranteed health insurance. Americans have moved in the opposite direction.
The kind of plan I want, is succesfully modeled in places such as France. The kind of plan you want, will kill people, cost them more for less coverage, and leave them at the mercy of health care coverage rising as they have less and less money to pay for it, eventually leaving more and more with not even the bad coverage your plan woudl give them, but with no coverage.
The problem? they know that. And they're saying, thanks, but no thanks. Sorry.
Oh, and did I mention this is DOA? And that right now, Coleman is getting beat over the head with it? And that as his poll numbers are dropping, other candiates are noticing that?
No one will run on this lunatic plan, and it's done. I think it's so funny that you ideologues are always the last to find out. I saw this happen with SS. This won't even get that far, and that never got far. But it will probably put a couple more Democrats in power, so please, by all means, keep shining up those pebbles and trying to sell them.
To answer your last question first, you are forced to leave a group plan when there is no longer a group plan for you to participate in, i.e. when your employer no longer provides health insurance benefits because the tax is too expensive.
Second, note the bolded words above. In short, McCain has no plan for those with pre-existing conditions. None. He just wants to kick them to the individual markets and hope for the best. That's not a plan.
It's a death sentence.
If my posts were really "emotional" I'd be calling proponents of this murderers.
It's a death sentence. Anyone who doesn't see that, has never had to deal with someone who has contacted a serious illness, and been denied coverage.
You are either ignorant, living in denial, or frankly, a monster.
I expect that SF is the first two. He is what someone I believe once called a "useful idiot", but I forgot who said that, it was some guy.
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The Almighty
first, YOU are assuming that the employer would have some incentive to stop providing healthcare. WHY would the employer stop providing care as a result of this plan???? I ran the numbers to show that under their CURRENT plan, the employees would not be seeing a tax increase as Obama suggested. I also stated that employees would not leave their employer plan if it was a net INCREASE to them to do so. Thus, the only ones that would voluntarily leave would be those that would BENEFIT from doing so.
That said, IF there is something that I am missing that is leading you to believe that employers would cut healthcare benefits as a result of this plan, please explain it. Because I am obviously not seeing it.
Second.... you continue to say that, but I do not see that anywhere in his plan. Please provide whatever you are using as a reference to suggest that he is looking to eliminate employer sponsored plans. Because your tax argument has already been discussed. The bulk of that $3.6 trillion is simply a shift of taxes... that results in the $1.3 trillion savings to employees. That $1.3 trillion (as we already discussed) does indeed need to be made up to keep this plan cost neutral. McCain thinks he can get the remainder from making M&M more efficient and eliminating (as much as possible) the fraud that occurs from within them. So please explain how the costs to employers changes at all, because I am not following you in that line of logic.
Third, I do not know how much waste is in M&M. According to the GAO (which I tend to detest) the annual figure is $60b. If that is accurate, then you are correct. He would need to find the other $70b elsewhere.
Lastly... true, a family plan is not going to be found for $5000. But that $5000 is tax CREDIT. Which means it reduces your tax liability dollar for dollar. I will have to go back to the other thread to get the average plan costs and then run the numbers. I will have to get back to you on this point.
See the thing is, the like, moral conundrum here is, that, some of the people who die because they are forced out onto the free market to purchase some shitty health care coverage that some huckster sales person tells them is good, are bound to be idiot republicans who voted for it. NOt SF, because he's got too much money, he'll have premier health insurance no matter what it costs, even as it goes higher and higher forcing more and more to go without, over the next ten years.
But others who post on here, and many who don't but have similar dispositions and who never care when it is the other guy getting it.
They'll die if this ever passed (it won't).
So that causes a moral conundrum for someone like me, who considers that poetic justice, and would kind of a get a little laugh out of it...at least like, a snicker, a W like smirk. A, heh heh heh, moment.
So that is the only down side to the fact that this will never be policy. Ever.
But others who post on here, and many who don't but have similar dispositions and who never care when it is the other guy getting it.
They'll die if this ever passed (it won't).
So that causes a moral conundrum for someone like me, who considers that poetic justice, and would kind of a get a little laugh out of it...at least like, a snicker, a W like smirk. A, heh heh heh, moment.
So that is the only down side to the fact that this will never be policy. Ever.