Most EVs Cost More to Drive Than Their Gas-Powered Rivals:

[Into the Night]

.

There is no fossil fuel industry. Fossils aren't used as fuel. Fossils don't burn.
Oil is not subsidized.

 

[Into the Night]

LOL. But I do make a return on the panels.
I pay $22,000 for them. I then don't have to pay $29,000 for electricity.

Buy electricity for 20 years - $29,000
Buy panels - $22,000
Monetary savings over 20 years - $7,000.
If they have no value at the end of 20 years, I still have spent $7,000 less. But do they have zero value?

Math error. Use of random numbers as 'data'. Argument from randU fallacy.

Provide your math showing your investment would have done better than buying the panels.

He already did. The math error is YOURS.

The average CD when I bought my panels was paying less than 1%. The average savings account was paying about 0.1%
T-bills were paying less than 1.5%
In order for the panels to not be a good investment, you would have to guarantee a return of 3% or higher. How are you going to do that?
What is the increase in electrical costs for 20 years? Will it go up faster or slower than inflation?
What is the return over 20 years?
Both of those are unknowns.

Now you are locked in another paradox, Poorboy. You cannot argue both sides of a paradox. You cannot claim to intimately know these values and say you don't know these values at the same time! That's irrational.

The other thing we are not including in the cost is the subsidy which makes it a very good investment to buy the panels.

Paradox. Irrational. You are saying subsidies are not a cost, then you are saying they are at the same time. You cannot argue both sides of a paradox.

If I can do better than break even without the subsidy then with the subsidy I am certainly making money.
With the subsidy included you would have to guarantee a 8% return on investment.

Communism doesn't work, dumbass. People don't like being forced to pay for YOUR solar panels! Now you justify theft as a good investment!!!

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Always a key that some dumbass liberal is going to make a completely dumbass post. Thanks for alerting me, at least.


No you don't.


You did not save $7,000 dollars ... You are ignoring maintenance costs as well as ignoring the time value of money.

What are my maintenance costs? Care to tell me what I have spent since you seem to think you know.

After 20 years? Effectively, yes.


~$22,000 dollars spent on silver bullion 20 years ago (4,536 troy oz of silver @ $4.85/troy oz).
Silver bullion value as of today (4,536 troy oz of silver @ $23.10/troy oz) = ~ $104,780 dollars of silver bullion.

Return on investment over 20 years - $82,780

That is interesting. I didn't put solar panels on my house 20 years ago. Past returns are not evidence of future returns.
If I bought silver in 2011, I would have lost all my money by 2018 by the time I sold each year to pay my electrical bill.
It seems you forgot to pay for your electricity for those 20 years. Just like always, you prove to be in the dark.

OR

~$22,000 dollars spent on agricultural land in Wisconsin 20 years ago (~6.73 acres @ $3,268/acre).
Agricultural land value as of today (~6.73 acres of land @ $5,551/acre) = ~$37,369

Return on investment over 20 years - ~$15,369

Past returns are not guaranteed in the future. It seems you forgot to pay for your electricity for those 20 years. Just like always, you prove to be in the dark.

OR

~$22,000 dollars in stock market returning an average of 5% per year over 20 years. Return on investment over 20 years - ~$36,373

ALL of these examples are far more than $7,000 (less solar panel maintenance costs over 20 years).


Stock market... gold... silver... land...

None of those are guaranteed for the future. 5% return isn't enough since I would need an 8% guaranteed. You forgot to pay for your electricity. You have to withdraw money every year to make a payment. The return is not 5% per year.
Money invested in the market in 1999 would have quickly lost value. Based on the market value of the DJIA in Dec of every year, investing 22000 in the market in 1999 and taking the money out every year to pay for electrcity. You would end up with $0 in the 18th year. You would lose money.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^DJ...story&frequency=1mo&includeAdjustedClose=true

The only dumbass seems to be you since you can't figure out that your investment schemes don't guarantee me a return.

 

[Into the Night]

ROFLMAO. So do you have actual math to support your idiocy?

It isn't idiocy. He just gave it, dumbass. RQAA.

Care to tell us what maintenance I have done in the last 5 years? Or are you just making up shit?

So you don't maintain your solar panels. That means they will be worthless in much less than 20 years time.

 

[Into the Night]

What are my maintenance costs?

Since you ask this question, I must assume that you do not maintain your solar panels. They will therefore last much less than 20 years.

Care to tell me what I have spent since you seem to think you know.

I have already described some of the costs of maintenance and repair. Argument of the Stone fallacy. RQAA.

That is interesting. I didn't put solar panels on my house 20 years ago.

YOU PUT THEM ON YOUR HOUSE???!? Now there is ADDITIONAL maintenance that must be done! AND you can't walk on your roof anymore, meaning it's not getting maintenance either!

Past returns are not evidence of future returns.

There is no 'return' with solar panels.

If I bought silver in 2011, I would have lost all my money by 2018 by the time I sold each year to pay my electrical bill.

But you would have power night and day.

It seems you forgot to pay for your electricity for those 20 years. Just like always, you prove to be in the dark.

No, that would be YOU. Solar panels do not produce power at night, leaving YOU in the dark!

Past returns are not guaranteed in the future. It seems you forgot to pay for your electricity for those 20 years. Just like always, you prove to be in the dark.

There are no 'returns'.

None of those are guaranteed for the future. 5% return isn't enough since I would need an 8% guaranteed. You forgot to pay for your electricity. You have to withdraw money every year to make a payment. The return is not 5% per year

But he has power night and day, unlike you.

Money invested in the market in 1999 would have quickly lost value. Based on the market value of the DJIA in Dec of every year, investing 22000 in the market in 1999 and taking the money out every year to pay for electrcity. You would end up with $0 in the 18th year. You would lose money.

But he would have power night and day, unlike you.

The only dumbass seems to be you since you can't figure out that your investment schemes don't guarantee me a return.

There is no 'return'.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

LOL. But I do make a return on the panels.
I pay $22,000 for them. I then don't have to pay $29,000 for electricity.

Buy electricity for 20 years - $29,000
Buy panels - $22,000
Monetary savings over 20 years - $7,000.
If they have no value at the end of 20 years, I still have spent $7,000 less. But do they have zero value?

Provide your math showing your investment would have done better than buying the panels.
The average CD when I bought my panels was paying less than 1%. The average savings account was paying about 0.1%
T-bills were paying less than 1.5%
In order for the panels to not be a good investment, you would have to guarantee a return of 3% or higher. How are you going to do that?
What is the increase in electrical costs for 20 years? Will it go up faster or slower than inflation?
What is the return over 20 years?
Both of those are unknowns.


The other thing we are not including in the cost is the subsidy which makes it a very good investment to buy the panels.
If I can do better than break even without the subsidy then with the subsidy I am certainly making money.
With the subsidy included you would have to guarantee a 8% return on investment.

How much interest on the loan...?

I could go plop down 22 grand on some raw land and make a better return in 20 years. Usually in 10 to 12 I double my money on that one, even more if the lot(s) were "unbuildable" when I bought them and I improved them where they now were buildable.

 

[ptif219]

CO2 is a greenhouse gas and we're increasing atmospheric ppm faster than the Earth can naturally recycle it.

Imagine a bathtub that's half full. Every second, one drop is drained from the bathtub. Also, ever second, one drop is added.

What happens is that the water level stays the same. But imagine if, instead of adding one drop every second, you add slightly more than one drop per second. The increase is so small that it's nearly imperceptible.

What happens now? Slowly, the water will rise.

That's what's happening with CO2 on planet Earth. Prior to the industrial revolution, there was a CO2 equilibrium. But now we're adding excess C02, and even though it's a tiny amount each day, we're slowly tipping the scales. Do you think it's any coincidence that the polar ice caps shrunk 50% since 1980, or that each successive decade is hotter than the last? Or that coral reefs are dying due to ocean acidification?

It is a very small percentage of the atmosphere. Stop putting up solar panesls and grow more plants. All the solar panels and wind turbines will cause a food shortage

 

[Into Тhe Night]

It is a very small percentage of the atmosphere. Stop putting up solar panesls and grow more plants. All the solar panels and wind turbines will cause a food shortage

Cool story.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

It is a very small percentage of the atmosphere. Stop putting up solar panesls and grow more plants. All the solar panels and wind turbines will cause a food shortage

I don't think they'll cause a food shortage as much as they definitely will create an energy shortage and price electricity out of reach of poorer people. This is what more wind and solar bring:

‘I have to do what I have to do for my last child. His siblings never went hungry’: This Detroit mother is forced to choose between her energy bill and groceries
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a...icity bills to still bring the groceries home.

Choosing between energy and food
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-023-01293-w

Energy cap rise means we’ll have to choose between ‘food and electricity’
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/m...o-choose-between-food-and-electricity-333308/

'One meal a day': Consumers forced to choose between food and paying power bills
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06...dy-to-choose-food-or-electricity-bill/8639132

Solar and wind cause energy prices to skyrocket. That's a fact everywhere, in every country its been pushed heavily in. The US will be no different. The Greentards are fucking us all with their stupidity.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

How much interest on the loan...?

I could go plop down 22 grand on some raw land and make a better return in 20 years. Usually in 10 to 12 I double my money on that one, even more if the lot(s) were "unbuildable" when I bought them and I improved them where they now were buildable.

0 x 8% is ZERO.

LOL. How do you pay your electric bill if your money for that purpose is tied up in land? Do you sell off 20 sq ft of land per month? How do you find a buyer for such a small amount? This is about paying your electric bill. If you invest in something that isn't liquid enough to sell some each month then the only thing you have done is something stupid.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Since you ask this question, I must assume that you do not maintain your solar panels. They will therefore last much less than 20 years.

I have already described some of the costs of maintenance and repair. Argument of the Stone fallacy. RQAA.

You didn't describe maintenance costs. You showed you are an idiot. No one would put solar panels under a tree but you. I certainly didn't put my solar panels under a tree because I understand that trees provide shade. Have you ever actually seen a tree? Do you understand how light works? Light doesn't go through opaque objects. A tree is considered an opaque object.

YOU PUT THEM ON YOUR HOUSE???!? Now there is ADDITIONAL maintenance that must be done! AND you can't walk on your roof anymore, meaning it's not getting maintenance either!

There is no 'return' with solar panels.

I have to walk around my roof to maintain it? Do you know what a roof is? Do you know how roofs work? Clearly not. Not only that you don't seem to understand how solar panels rarely cover an entire roof. My solar panels take up less than 30% of my roof so I can walk on my roof any time I want.
I hope you maintain your roof properly by nailing the shingles down every year with at least 10 - 16 penny nails per shingle!!!

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

It isn't idiocy. He just gave it, dumbass. RQAA.

So you don't maintain your solar panels. That means they will be worthless in much less than 20 years time.

Clearly you must maintain your solar panels. How much does it cost you per month?

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

I don't think they'll cause a food shortage as much as they definitely will create an energy shortage and price electricity out of reach of poorer people.

.

That means my decision to put up solar panels is even better because electricity costs are going to go up so much that I will be saving even more money by not having to pay for it.

 

[T. A. Gardner]

That means my decision to put up solar panels is even better because electricity costs are going to go up so much that I will be saving even more money by not having to pay for it.

No, it means solar panels are expensive and stupid.

 

[gfm7175]

What are my maintenance costs? Care to tell me what I have spent since you seem to think you know.

Only you can tell me what you have spent on maintenance, and there's no way to verify your claims about that since this is an anonymous online forum.

With that said, I'm sensing that you haven't spent a single dime on maintenance because you wish to neglect proper maintenance on your solar panels. That'll reduce their lifespan, making your paid-up-front electricity cost even higher than if you would've properly maintained your solar panels.

That is interesting. I didn't put solar panels on my house 20 years ago.

I never said that you did. But since you apparently put the panels on your house, that means that even additional maintenance should be done (as well as this not allowing for proper maintenance to be done on your roof). Those are all additional costs (by means of performing said maintenance, or by means of a shortened lifespan of the panels/roof).

Past returns are not evidence of future returns. If I bought silver in 2011, I would have lost all my money by 2018 by the time I sold each year to pay my electrical bill.

Why would you be "[selling] each year to pay [your] electrical bill"? Wouldn't you just pay it on a monthly basis? 2011-2018 is only 7 years, not 20 years.

It seems you forgot to pay for your electricity for those 20 years.

Nah. I would pay for it on a monthly basis.

Just like always, you prove to be in the dark.

Your issue, especially at night time.

Past returns are not guaranteed in the future. It seems you forgot to pay for your electricity for those 20 years. Just like always, you prove to be in the dark.

Repetition. See above responses.

None of those are guaranteed for the future. 5% return isn't enough since I would need an 8% guaranteed.

Obviously you've never looked into all the costs associated with solar panels.

You forgot to pay for your electricity.

Nope. I pay for my electricity on a monthly basis, and I don't have to withdraw $22,000 from savings to pay for it all up-front. I just pay for it as I make use of it. Plus, the power company handles most of the maintenance (instead of myself).

You have to withdraw money every year to make a payment.

No I don't. I just make out a small check for ~$100-ish or so each month. That's not even a day's worth of labor (after taxes), and I get paid every two weeks.

The return is not 5% per year. Money invested in the market in 1999 would have quickly lost value. Based on the market value of the DJIA in Dec of every year, investing 22000 in the market in 1999 and taking the money out every year to pay for electrcity. You would end up with $0 in the 18th year. You would lose money.
https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/^DJ...story&frequency=1mo&includeAdjustedClose=true

Cherry picking mixed with an irrelevant example. There's no "taking the money out every year" involved.

The only dumbass seems to be you since you can't figure out that your investment schemes don't guarantee me a return.

Actually, the only dumbass here is you since you are ignoring pertinent costs (and ignoring maintenance, thereby reducing the lifespan of your panels and roof).

The $22,000 you spent on up-front electricity costs would be better served being invested in something that produces a decent return (I gave the examples of stock market, gold, silver, and land). In fact, with land, you wouldn't even have to let it sit. You could also make use of it and make money off of it.

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

Only you can tell me what you have spent on maintenance, and there's no way to verify your claims about that since this is an anonymous online forum.

With that said, I'm sensing that you haven't spent a single dime on maintenance because you wish to neglect proper maintenance on your solar panels. That'll reduce their lifespan, making your paid-up-front electricity cost even higher than if you would've properly maintained your solar panels.

You haven't told me what maintenance I am neglecting. What maintenance do you think needs to occur? Do I need to change the solar belt every year? Do I need to adjust the prisms? Do I need to invert the inverters every other month so they stay inverted? Surely you can tell us since you are such an expert on solar panels.

Oh.. I can just wash them? Hmm.. That is so expensive. It costs me less than an hour and 10 cents worth of water and detergent. Maintenance is almost nothing. Repair because of damage is not maintenance.
What maintenance is required on an annual or even a 5 year basis?

I never said that you did. But since you apparently put the panels on your house, that means that even additional maintenance should be done (as well as this not allowing for proper maintenance to be done on your roof). Those are all additional costs (by means of performing said maintenance, or by means of a shortened lifespan of the panels/roof).

What maintenance do I need to do to my roof? Do I need to renail the shingles every year? Do I need to change the shingle belt? How about if I sweep the shingles to get all the sand off them?
Oh. I can just check to see if any of them blew off in the last wind storm and then do repairs if they are damaged? Wow.. that check takes me about 10 minutes and the shingles are rated for 100 mph winds so no damage yet.

Why would you be "[selling] each year to pay [your] electrical bill"? Wouldn't you just pay it on a monthly basis? 2011-2018 is only 7 years, not 20 years.

Gee... so now you are saying I need to sell land every month to pay my electrical bill instead of annually? How does that work in your scenario where you suggested I could just buy land and get a better return? How do I only sell $100 worth of land?

Nah. I would pay for it on a monthly basis.


Your issue, especially at night time.


Repetition. See above responses.


Obviously you've never looked into all the costs associated with solar panels.


Nope. I pay for my electricity on a monthly basis, and I don't have to withdraw $22,000 from savings to pay for it all up-front. I just pay for it as I make use of it. Plus, the power company handles most of the maintenance (instead of myself).



No I don't. I just make out a small check for ~$100-ish or so each month. That's not even a day's worth of labor (after taxes), and I get paid every two weeks.

Now you are cheating and using other money. I guess that would mean I am free to pay the $22,000 up front and then put what I would have spent on electricity into an investment and I still come out ahead because by doing a monthly savings I don't have to worry about timing the market. Dollar cost averaging is the recommended way to invest.

Cherry picking mixed with an irrelevant example. There's no "taking the money out every year" involved.

You have to pay your electric bill if you aren't generating your own electricity. You clearly haven't run the numbers if you think the electric bill can go unpaid.

Actually, the only dumbass here is you since you are ignoring pertinent costs (and ignoring maintenance, thereby reducing the lifespan of your panels and roof).

ROFLMAO. I really want to know what maintenance you do for your roof and what maintenance you suggest for the solar panels. I'll bet you won't tell us. I'll bet you have never put a shingle on any building let alone done maintenance on a roof.
Redoing the flashing on a chimney has nothing to do with solar panels.

The $22,000 you spent on up-front electricity costs would be better served being invested in something that produces a decent return (I gave the examples of stock market, gold, silver, and land). In fact, with land, you wouldn't even have to let it sit. You could also make use of it and make money off of it.

You haven't told me where I could get guaranteed return. My return on the solar panels is guaranteed. None of your examples guarantee a return and all could have resulted in my losing the money before 20 years was up.
What land are you buying for $22,000 in 2022 that will allow you to use it and make money off it? Farm Land in Wisconsin is about $5,400 an acre. How am I going to make money on a farm of 4 acres? I would have to own farm equipment and I certainly can't rent it and make money on 4 acres. It seems you are ignorant about many things. For $22,000 I can't even buy 10 acres hunting land in WI. Now you are saying I have to spend more time on upkeep on my land than I ever will on my solar panels. Isn't time money?

 

[Poor Richard Saunders]

No, it means solar panels are expensive and stupid.

I just spent $22,000 for 25 years of electricity that you are telling me would cost me $50,000 if I bought it instead of generated it. Who is the stupid person here?

 

[Into the Night]

It is a very small percentage of the atmosphere. Stop putting up solar panesls and grow more plants. All the solar panels and wind turbines will cause a food shortage

Shortages are already occurring because of shipping costs and problems with fuel, caused by Biden and the Democrats...the same morons pushing both wind generators and solar panels (as well as providing subsidies, which is communism).

 

[Into the Night]

Cool story.

Not a piece of fiction, moron.

 

[Into the Night]

I don't think they'll cause a food shortage as much as they definitely will create an energy shortage and price electricity out of reach of poorer people. This is what more wind and solar bring:

‘I have to do what I have to do for my last child. His siblings never went hungry’: This Detroit mother is forced to choose between her energy bill and groceries
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/a...icity bills to still bring the groceries home.

Choosing between energy and food
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41560-023-01293-w

Energy cap rise means we’ll have to choose between ‘food and electricity’
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/m...o-choose-between-food-and-electricity-333308/

'One meal a day': Consumers forced to choose between food and paying power bills
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-06...dy-to-choose-food-or-electricity-bill/8639132

Solar and wind cause energy prices to skyrocket. That's a fact everywhere, in every country its been pushed heavily in. The US will be no different. The Greentards are fucking us all with their stupidity.

Food shortages are already occurring, due to fuel costs caused by Biden and the Democrats.