Obama Begins VP Search....

[Topspin]

Oncelor on the other hand clearly fears powerfull woman and is a sexist flag carrier.
Yes they have taken the low road on occasion out of obvious desparation. But the bulk of the policies are bou coup liberal and out their in ink a lot more than Obama's. Millions of good Democrats support Hillary, just about a million short. Small men like Lorax make it tough for a good democratic woman to win.

 

[Onceler]

I'm tall top; over 6'.

Feels good.

 

[Cancel7]

Oncelor on the other hand clearly fears powerfull woman and is a sexist flag carrier.
Yes they have taken the low road on occasion out of obvious desparation. But the bulk of the policies are bou coup liberal and out their in ink a lot more than Obama's. Millions of good Democrats support Hillary, just about a million short. Small men like Lorax make it tough for a good democratic woman to win.

LOL I can't wait to see Onceler's response to this.

I dont think he's sexist. He's really not. But he is oblivious to what has been going on in the debate between the two camps and how badly, many Obama supporters have hurt any possibility of a coalition here.

I don't let their shit get to me anymore. Look at bac who is probably in the middle of blasting me right now. I like him. I always will. But the man is not a coalition builder. I mean, I am a person who voted against Hillary Clinton long before any of them even though about doing so, in 06, I went with the anti-war candidate in NY. And yet somehow I have become a white woman Clintonista, and "we all know, you know, we all have that problem with white women", as William Kristol might say. As william Kristol did say, actually.

If I didn't laugh my ass off over all this shit, I would probably really get steamed. But I'm laughing, even now.

 

[Cancel7]

I'm tall top; over 6'.

Feels good.

Really. Interesting.

 

[Onceler]

"But he is oblivious to what has been going on in the debate between the two camps and how badly, many Obama supporters have hurt any possibility of a coalition here. "

I'm not oblvious to that at all. I know that many have been absolutely vitriolic, including myself on occasion.

If you'll notice - not sure if you actually read through my comments anymore - I wrote only about Obama's actual campaign, which was the focus of my exchange with Care. There is a big difference between the campaign & the supporters.

 

[Cancel7]

"But he is oblivious to what has been going on in the debate between the two camps and how badly, many Obama supporters have hurt any possibility of a coalition here. "

I'm not oblvious to that at all. I know that many have been absolutely vitriolic, including myself on occasion.

If you'll notice - not sure if you actually read through my comments anymore - I wrote only about Obama's actual campaign, which was the focus of my exchange with Care. There is a big difference between the campaign & the supporters.

But I think that Care made it clear early on that she wasn't talking about Obama or his direct campaign Onceler. She even said "Obama he's an alright guy, but his followers". She's talking about things she has read on the internet, and things she has heard on talk shows from callers. It's pretty prevelant out there. It's making a coalition kind of out of reach. It's a shame.

 

[Topspin]

I'm going with his wife makes more money than him and probably is in better physical shape. So though while not gay, he's not the toughest adult in his household. She probably tells him what to think. SO he vents by being sexist here. LOL
That's still way better than USGED, at least Lorax has a woman. Maybe she's more impressed with his vertical abiltity than his earning abiltiy. LOL

 

[Onceler]

But I think that Care made it clear early on that she wasn't talking about Obama or his direct campaign Onceler. She even said "Obama he's an alright guy, but his followers". She's talking about things she has read on the internet, and things she has heard on talk shows from callers. It's pretty prevelant out there. It's making a coalition kind of out of reach. It's a shame.

I misinterpreted her remarks, then. I was speaking specifically about the campaigns. When I hear 'camp,' I think 'campaign,' because that is mainly how it is used, but looking back at her remarks, I see you're right.

I've had it with the assumptions though, and being called blind & oblivious. All I said on the last thread was that much of what I heard from Hillary supporters had to do with gender identity, and suddenly I was speaking for all women, and saying they're all idiots, and not a one of them is voting for her for any reason but that she is a woman, yada yada yada. I definitely feel that you & Care & others are projecting years of anger about sexism - which I would not discount - onto anything that moves at this point.

I think elements of both groups of supporters - the vocal elements, since that's who we read & hear on the web & elsewhere - have been pretty awful, and I wouldn't argue that one group has been "better" than the other. They have both crossed way over the line, and said things that would give someone on the other side cause to not vote for their candidate. I'm not the kind of person who allows what a supporter of someone says or feels affect my vote; I do try to look at the actual candidate. But I understand that there are other points of view, and that there is a rift here which probably will not be healed.

 

[Onceler]

I'm going with his wife makes more money than him and probably is in better physical shape. So though while not gay, he's not the toughest adult in his household. She probably tells him what to think. SO he vents by being sexist here. LOL
That's still way better than USGED, at least Lorax has a woman. Maybe she's more impressed with his vertical abiltity than his earning abiltiy. LOL

That's very insightful.

In your opinion, tops, if someone does not support Hillary for President, does that make them sexist?

 

[Cancel7]

I misinterpreted her remarks, then. I was speaking specifically about the campaigns. When I hear 'camp,' I think 'campaign,' because that is mainly how it is used, but looking back at her remarks, I see you're right.

I've had it with the assumptions though, and being called blind & oblivious. All I said on the last thread was that much of what I heard from Hillary supporters had to do with gender identity, and suddenly I was speaking for all women, and saying they're all idiots, and not a one of them is voting for her for any reason but that she is a woman, yada yada yada. I definitely feel that you & Care & others are projecting years of anger about sexism - which I would not discount - onto anything that moves at this point.

I think elements of both groups of supporters - the vocal elements, since that's who we read & hear on the web & elsewhere - have been pretty awful, and I wouldn't argue that one group has been "better" than the other. They have both crossed way over the line, and said things that would give someone on the other side cause to not vote for their candidate. I'm not the kind of person who allows what a supporter of someone says or feels affect my vote; I do try to look at the actual candidate. But I understand that there are other points of view, and that there is a rift here which probably will not be healed.

I didn't say you were saying all women were idiots at all. I think you added that in. But i felt that your clear implication was that you were resentful because you felt that many hillary supporters were voting for her because she's a woman. I probably was a little harder on you because I was not thrilled with some things bac had been saying in there.

But I don't really allow years of sexism to color my views and I think that if I did I would be voting for Hillary.

And I really have to strongly disagree that one side hasn't been worse than the other side. I think that even now, with Obama the clear nominee, if you saw a little grace on the part of many obama supporters, you could start to see a healing, but this grace is sadly lacking. That might be due to Hillary still being in the race, but the way I see it, especially lately, unless you are willing to state that Hillary is outright evil, a murderer who will put a hit on Obama, a nd just really the complete mythification of the Fatal Attraction bunny burner come to life, which is sexist on its very face, then you have a problem with many Obama supporters Onceler. Not necessarily with you. I think you are somewhat more open than many others, though you do have your moments. As do I.

 

[Topspin]

Lorax/oncelor did you go to a real college.
You rant against hillary on many things, most of them not policy.
That makes you sexist, that and your fear of superior woman, Here's a clue for you. Most of them are superior to men.

 

[Onceler]

Well, if you want to take a small sample, the internet dialog boards (outside of this one) are still rife with Hillary supporters using the "Hussein" middle name and generally attacking Obama's character with gusto, while saying they will vote for McCain. I know that's a small sample, but a larger sample comes with the exit polls that they do after every primary, which show a significantly higher % of Hillary supporters who say they will simply not vote for Obama, and will vote for McCain if she doesn't get the nod.

I know this isn't exactly the same as what we're talking about in terms of tone & vitriol, but i do see it more as a 2-way street. I know a lot of Obama supporters are pissed simply because Hillary supporters would be willing to give the election to McCain as sour grapes. With Obama supporters, you also see a lot more reaction to the actual Clinton campaign, as opposed to Hillary's supporters; there are things Hillary has done that have created some deep, deep rifts. I know what you're saying about painting her with too much hyperbole, and I'm guilty of that, but she has taken this campaign to some surprising levels for a primary fight.

It is a logical time to heal now; to elevate the tone, and start building bridges again. But the only people who can lead that are Hillary & Obama, and they're still slugging away, though with less intensity than before. I think that a public reconciliation between the 2 is inevitable, as are campaign efforts for Obama from Hillary. Those events will have some effect; there are definitely going to be some who still won't vote Obama, but I see it playing out much as it has for McCain. They'll be able to bring many back into the fold for the general.

 

[Topspin]

what a tool, and there are absolutely no foolish obama supporters spewing the Hitlary shit. I guess your trying to balance out the shortage of Obama fools. Good Job LORI!!!

 

[Onceler]

Lorax/oncelor did you go to a real college.
You rant against hillary on many things, most of them not policy.
That makes you sexist, that and your fear of superior woman, Here's a clue for you. Most of them are superior to men.

I usually talk about her campaign tactics, which have been pretty low, imo. That does not make me "sexist."

I don't think you know what the word means. I agree with a lot of women I know on the topic of Hillary. We are ready for a woman President & would love to have a woman President; just not this woman.

There is no fear, except yours. You're afraid that if you don't support ANY woman, that will be seen as sexist. That's too bad. I wouldn't say that most women are superior to men, or that most men are superior to women. I don't know most men, or most women.

 

[Onceler]

what a tool, and there are absolutely no foolish obama supporters spewing the Hitlary shit. I guess your trying to balance out the shortage of Obama fools. Good Job LORI!!!

I already said, a few times, that Obama supporters have also been vitriolic.

Maybe you don't know what that word means? I should have considered that. Sorry about that, tops; I'll try to use smaller words.

 

[Cancel7]

Well, if you want to take a small sample, the internet dialog boards (outside of this one) are still rife with Hillary supporters using the "Hussein" middle name and generally attacking Obama's character with gusto, while saying they will vote for McCain. I know that's a small sample, but a larger sample comes with the exit polls that they do after every primary, which show a significantly higher % of Hillary supporters who say they will simply not vote for Obama, and will vote for McCain if she doesn't get the nod.

I know this isn't exactly the same as what we're talking about in terms of tone & vitriol, but i do see it more as a 2-way street. I know a lot of Obama supporters are pissed simply because Hillary supporters would be willing to give the election to McCain as sour grapes. With Obama supporters, you also see a lot more reaction to the actual Clinton campaign, as opposed to Hillary's supporters; there are things Hillary has done that have created some deep, deep rifts. I know what you're saying about painting her with too much hyperbole, and I'm guilty of that, but she has taken this campaign to some surprising levels for a primary fight.

It is a logical time to heal now; to elevate the tone, and start building bridges again. But the only people who can lead that are Hillary & Obama, and they're still slugging away, though with less intensity than before. I think that a public reconciliation between the 2 is inevitable, as are campaign efforts for Obama from Hillary. Those events will have some effect; there are definitely going to be some who still won't vote Obama, but I see it playing out much as it has for McCain. They'll be able to bring many back into the fold for the general.

Wow, I have not seen the Hussein posts, and I don’t know if it’s because I have been blind to them, or we are reading different sites. That sounds like Republicans to me, and I even think that some of the comments coming from “obama supporters” are republicans too. They are loving this you know. If they are democratic women, I really would feel like I don’t want them in the party anyway.

Some of the women just are never going to come around. Over at sites like Buzzflash, and even Huffpo they are just awful. It’s as if every story has an anti-Hillary headline, the male publisher had the balls to publish a list of “feminist values” and then inform women which of their values were and were not feminist, when the list was just a list of his own liberal views and few had anything to do with feminism. Perhaps the worst has been the holding of the Supreme court hostage. There is now, a real air of “hey bitches, you better get on board or you’ll lose Roe”. Well, you know, people generally don’t react well to blackmail. Many of us white bitches live in states so blue, that like mine, we’re never going to be subject to the whims of a conservative ruling on Roe.

But I don’t vote on that stuff. And I don’t hold any of this against Obama at all. I am hopeful this will be over by next week.

 

[blackascoal]

YOu seem so full of hatered BAC....can you give me some of your Background as to why this is the case?

not by this statement, but in general...?

Care

"full of hatred"?

No, I'm not .. nor am I any of the other over-the-top hysterical characterizations that you and Darla try to paint. Don't see Obama as the "messiah", nor do I see anyone as a messiah, including Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, or Jehovah. Don't blame the Clintons for our entire history, including the slaughter of the indians .. silly as hell to suggest I do. Don't agree with everything Obama says and does.

What I am is a father with a daughter in Iraq. A daughter who has survived being stuck in Hell for 32 months over 3 tours now. A daughter whom I raised by myself and love as much as any parent could love. Forget what color I am because racism doesn't have anything to do with what you precieve as "hatred." There are a lot of fathers and mothers just like me, and they ain't all black. Regardles of their race, they have the same nightmares that I do.

I've probably been around as long as you have so you can save the condesending age remark you said to Watermark.

What you'd like to interpret as anger is better described as disgust. Oftentimes, the American people are simply disgusting. This is one of those times. I take offense when anyone calls me a liberal or a democrat, because for the most part, they are weak people pretending to have conscience. This country has thoughtlessly mass-murdered countless innocent people and destroyed a small nation that presented no threat to us .. and we don't REALLY care. Not really .. we don't care. We also don't care about our own young men and women who are being blown the fuck up daily. Not your child in peril .. so fuck 'em.

At a moment when the Democratic Party is being HANDED power, not through actions of their own but through the failures of the right, the Clintons, who hand power to republicans very well, do what they do best .. which is blame everyone else for their failures. If you choose to discuss this, how about you demonstrate that age thing you spoke of and address what I ACTUALLY say, not a histrionic mischaracterization.

Frankly, I find you quite misinformed about quite a few things you say and you have yet to address the questions about the Clintons that I've asked.

I guess it was OK when blacks you claim were filled with "evil, rude, and sexist statements" were giving the Clintons 90% of their support .. and in fact were the X factor that got Bill Clinton elected both times, thus paving the way for Hillary Clintons moment. I guess they weren't so bad then .. when they knew their place. In fact, when this primary began, Hillary had the majority of black support, not Obama. Of course, there couldn't possibly be anything that Hillary did wrong to lose that support .. just black people being rude and sexist.

Everybody is sexist. The media, black people, Obama and anybody who supports him. Never mind that the media, black people, and many who now support Obama were all with Clinton when this thing started. She was the presumptive nominee and nobody was sexist. Never mind that Hillary did then and does now get the majority of male votes. Everybody is sexist because her failures cannot be due to bad strategy, Mark Penn, voting for the war, voting with Bush on Iran, "obliterate Iran", getting caught in lies and deceptions, taking caucuses for granted and proclaiming she would be coronated as the nominee by Feb. 5, Bill Clinton, Columbia trade deals, or offensive statements.

None of the above contribute to Hillary's defeat or her high negatives .. only sexism.

Why did many of those closest to the Clintons abandon them? Must be because they're sexist .. even the women. That must be it because you haven't answered that question though I've asked several times.

I can logically discuss any aspect my disgust for the Clintons and their intent to blow up the party and destroy the opportunity to end the suffering in Iraq .. and I can logically discuss their contuned moving goalposts which don't have a damn thing to do with sexism .. and how it's not sexism at all or any affront to democracy or women .. and I can gladly discuss why I and many others took real offense to Hillary's comment, not the "pretense" you claimed .. which I found mighty "white" of you to determine what I should be offended by.

This election is over. Obama played by the rules and against the odds, he won. Had he lost 12 elections in a row he would have been tossed out long ago.

I have a daughter in danger in a made-up bullshit war that should have never been waged and which your candidate approved of and does not regret, as there are countless daughters in danger because of it .. I don't suffer fools easily on this issue.

 

[Topspin]

LORI, I"m a bandwagon democrat. You won't see me name calling either one. I was a Hillary supproter when I thought she was a fruntrunner likely to win, now I'm an Obama supporter. There are reasons to like both, but small not cofident sexist can come up with some doesies to not like HIllary. Congrats on your 8th grade grammar skills, I'm sure it helps in your software sales. You should be proud.

 

[Cancel7]

Lorax/oncelor did you go to a real college.
You rant against hillary on many things, most of them not policy.
That makes you sexist, that and your fear of superior woman, Here's a clue for you. Most of them are superior to men.

LOL. Top has always been a strong feminist, I have to give him that. Not that I agree that Onceler is a sexist, I don’t, just to be clear. Hmm, let me go see what’s up with you and SF on that other thread, I bet I am missing some good shit.

 

[blackascoal]

Lorax/oncelor did you go to a real college.
You rant against hillary on many things, most of them not policy.
That makes you sexist, that and your fear of superior woman, Here's a clue for you. Most of them are superior to men.

That's bullshit .. and it's stupid.

Blacks aren't fighting for equality to prove that we're superior to anybody, nor should women.

No race, no gender, no faith is superior to any other and to suggest such bullshit is detrimental to acheiving equality.