Obama camp trying to scare seniors... AGAIN...

Dungheap said:
Just for giggle, here is the piece:




I'll highlighted the portions of the article that rely exclusively on the claims of Holtz-Eakin as opposed to actual verifiable facts.

In short, this article should be titled "Obama and McCain disagree as to the impact of the McCain healthcare proposal on Medicare and Medicaid" because that's all it is.

Obama says one thing. Holtz-Eakin says another. Somehow Holtz-Eakin's claims are transformed into "facts" when basic math tells you otherwise.
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The difference good lemming is that you are refusing to pay attention to WHAT the article is saying was WRONG with Obamas claims. AS the article states, both Newsweek and Factcheck doubt the ability for either candidate's plan to be revenue neutral.

The part that is the lie being put forth to scare seniors is that McCain will cut benefits. He will not. If he is unable to cut enough waste from Medicare then he will have to find the funds elsewhere. Just as Obama will. NEITHER has proposed cutting benefits to make up for any shortfalls. Yet Obama is claiming that McCain has done just that. Which is a blatant LIE.
 
Superfreak said:
........
The point of the article is not whether McCain will be successful or not making his plan budget neutral, but whether or not he plans to cut benefits. He clearly does not plan to cut benefits as Obama claims. THAT is the <strike>bullhit</strike> accurate portion of the ad that is designed to scare seniors...........
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http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/mc...s-little-attention-in-florida-2008-01-26.html

"McCain plan to scale back drug benefit gets little attention in Florida "

Again, I can see where you'd be confused. He seems to have new plans every day. If you're nice maybe I'll ignore this pwnership. I just seem to be racking them up against you lately. Damo's server may run out of space soon.
 
Damocles said:
Again, there is a difference in making it more efficient without cutting services and "cutting".

I am personally dubious that he'll find that much in savings as much as the next guy. So IMO his will cost more and so will Obamas. Magical loopholes and savings is where he says he'll find the money to pay for his too...

BOTH of these guys are too danged expensive for us, but everybody is voting for Santa Claus rather than President...
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Please try to stay on topic. The issue is whether Obama's claim that McCain will cut benefits is accurate. McCain has said that his plan is budget neutral. His plan costs $1.3 trillion. That $1.3 trillion shortfall has to be made up somewhere. McCain said he will make up for the shortfall by making cuts to Medicare and Medicaid. As a result, one of two things must be true:

(1) McCain is lying and his plan is not budget neutral and will not be budget neutral.

(2) McCain is telling the truth and he will cut $1.3 trillion from Medicare and Medicaid. For this to be true necessarily requires benefit cuts. In this case, Obama is correct.

In the end, either McCain is lying or Obama is correct.
 
Superfreak said:
The difference good lemming is that you are refusing to pay attention to WHAT the article is saying was WRONG with Obamas claims. AS the article states, both Newsweek and Factcheck doubt the ability for either candidate's plan to be revenue neutral.

The part that is the lie being put forth to scare seniors is that McCain will cut benefits. He will not. If he is unable to cut enough waste from Medicare then he will have to find the funds elsewhere. Just as Obama will. NEITHER has proposed cutting benefits to make up for any shortfalls. Yet Obama is claiming that McCain has done just that. Which is a blatant LIE.
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Obama hasn't pledged that is plan will be budget neutral by cutting Medicare and Medicaid. Obama has pledged that some savings will come from Medicare and Medicaid. He has also said that his tax increases will cover the remaining costs of his plan.
 
Dungheap said:
Please try to stay on topic. The issue is whether Obama's claim that McCain will cut benefits is accurate. McCain has said that his plan is budget neutral. His plan costs $1.3 trillion. That $1.3 trillion shortfall has to be made up somewhere. McCain said he will make up for the shortfall by making cuts to Medicare and Medicaid. As a result, one of two things must be true:

(1) McCain is lying and his plan is not budget neutral and will not be budget neutral.

(2) McCain is telling the truth and he will cut $1.3 trillion from Medicare and Medicaid. For this to be true necessarily requires benefit cuts. In this case, Obama is correct.

In the end, either McCain is lying or Obama is correct.
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It is inaccurate. Directly stated there would be no cuts and if savings didn't create enough room funds would be found elsewhere. Time after time it talks about that fact, but you are too disingenuous and ready to repeat talking points to even grab a clue.

And talking about how expensive both plans are IS a portion of this topic.

It is hacktacularly illogical to pretend that comparisons of both plans and their expense is somehow "off limits" because you dislike the magic money Fairy being found in both plans and know, if you were being honest with yourself, that we can't afford either plan.

I get tired of both parties running the Promise Machines and nary a cost cutter among them.

Santa Claus is popular among children, but we should divest ourselves of the belief in magic, whether D Magical Loophole Faeries or R Magical Efficiency Faeries, when we reach a certain age.
 
Oh yeah, Obama's way over the line. McCain would never do anything like reduce benefits for Seniors on Medicaid and medicare.

http://www.aflcio.org/issues/politics/mccain_retirement.cfm

McCain Voted to Cut Billions from Medicare. McCain voted for the budget reconciliation bill that reduced spending on Medicare by $6.4 billion by requiring that beneficiariespurchase medical equipment and cutting payments to home health care providers. [S. 1932, Vote #363, 12/21/05; Congressional Quarterly, 12/26/05]

McCain Voted for Steep Increases in Seniors’ Medicare Premiums. McCain voted against protecting seniors from steep increases in their Medicare Part B premiums. Seniors faced the premium increase because Congress increased Medicare payments to physicians but failed to enact savings from Medicare payments to private health plans. [S. 1932, Vote #287, 11/3/05]

McCain Voted to Raise Medicare Eligibility Age. In 1997, McCain voted to support provisions that would increase the age for Medicare eligibility from 65 to 67 and impose a new $5 co-payment for home health care visits. [S. 947, Vote #112, 6/24/97; S. Amdt. 445, Vote #115, 6/25/97]
 
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Dungheap said:
Obama hasn't pledged that is plan will be budget neutral by cutting Medicare and Medicaid. Obama has pledged that some savings will come from Medicare and Medicaid. He has also said that his tax increases will cover the remaining costs of his plan.
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From McCains site...


"John McCain believes that we can achieve savings in Medicare without reducing benefits or eligibility. He has proposed common-sense reforms that will not only put Medicare on a path of financial stability but ensure access to quality care for millions of Americans. Some of the policies proposed by the McCain plan include:

Promote payment reform that allows us to move away from the current fragmented and volume-based service to a system which rewards coordinated and quality focused care.


Eliminate Medicare fraud and abuse to ensure that nearly $60 billion a year, almost 10 percent of total Medicare spending, that goes to line the pocket of criminals instead of providing quality care for seniors.


Ensure that drug premiums for the wealthiest Americans are not being subsidized by the middle class.


Promote a new generation of treatment models that better manage chronic care conditions while rewarding prevention and wellness.


Greater use of Health IT and medical homes to promote greater co-ordination of care.


Reduce drug costs by allowing greater use of generics (including bio-generics). "

He says he believes he can get the $130b per year by doing the above. He does not state that if unsuccessful that he will cut benefits. THAT is the pure bullshit being tossed around by Obama. But I know, everyone calling BS on the Obama ad... from Newsweek to factcheck and even See BS..

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/17/eveningnews/realitycheck/main4530306.shtml

"So here's where the whopper starts. Even if the McCain health plan digs a massive hole in the deficit, McCain has always argued he would make up the difference with savings. This is a whole different concept from what Obama is claiming: "drastic cuts" in actual health care benefits delivered to seniors. Not to mention that Obama himself proposes every single item from the list of Medicare savings above, with the exception of Medicare Part D reform.

The $882 billion dollar whopper itself was calculated by the Center for American Progress Action Fund, Center for American Progress Action Fund, October 2008] a left of center group inclined toward Obama. The group comes up with the $882 billion figure by taking the Tax Policy Center's estimate of a $ 1.3 trillion shortfall, and simply breaking it up into its Medicare ($882) and Medicaid ($419 billion) component parts.

Either way, even if you believe McCain's health plan is a train wreck and that none of his math adds up, he proposes to fix that with Medicare savings, not with $882 billion worth of "cuts." "

But I know, The Messiah doesn't lie. Everyone else must be wrong, because the Messiah has proclaimed it so.... and the lemmings said... 'Praise the One!!! He shall make the floods recede, heal the earth and punish those evil evil rich people'

*steady chant ensues* 'Obama! Obama! Obama!...'
 
LadyT said:
http://www.retiredamericans.org/ht/display/ReleaseDetails/i/6491/pid/179

http://www.cjr.org/campaign_desk/mccains_quiet_medicare_bombshe.php

"What the NewsHour didn’t let the candidate discuss was his quiet bombshell proposal to make Medicare beneficiaries with higher incomes pay more for their prescription drug benefits"
We're all socialists now.

http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/mc...s-little-attention-in-florida-2008-01-26.html

"McCain plan to scale back drug benefit gets little attention in Florida "
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I'm glad Obama's opening up seniors' eyes and is unapologetic.
 
This is nonsense for a whole host of reasons.

First of all, McCain's original proposal was to tax health insurance provided by employers. This originally included payroll taxes on health insurance as well. That's how it he originally planned to achieve "budget neutrality."

Then, when he was getting hammered for proposing a big $2.5 trillion tax increase, the McCain campaign back-peddled, claiming that the tax increase would not include payroll taxes. But, this posed a big problem: he had to come up with $1.3 trillion from somewhere to keep his "budget neutrality." His solution was to trim Medicare and Medicaid to the tune of $1.3 trillion over ten years.

Suddenly, it's a big whopper for Obama to point out that McCain's plan, if implemented as he intends it to be implemented would necessarily result in benefit cuts to Medicare and Medicaid.

It's horseshit.

By the way, SF, McCain doesn't claim he can get to $130 billion a year by those reforms. The only specific dollar amount is the $60 billion. Also, keep in mind that these reforms were something he talked about before he decided that his new tax would not include payroll taxes and then decided cuts to Medicare and Medicaid would make up the shortfall.
 
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Superfreak said:
LMAO... so when quoting a candidates proposal you are opposed to using their ACTUAL words? You prefer instead to listen to their OPPONENT?

What a hack.
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No, I prefer to judge by what they HAVE done, and what they have certainly implied.

Your stupid outrage on this thread is more par for the course; the McCain camp is ginning up a lynching for Obama, and you're upset because a guy who has voted to cut Medicare & who would logically have to in order to keep his promises is somehow being misrepresented....
 
LadyT said:
That's what his site says now, but during the republican primaries it was a whole nother story

"http://thehill.com/campaign-2008/mccain-plan-to-scale-back-drug-benefit-gets-little-attention-in-florida-2008-01-26.html

During his run for the White House, McCain has not obscured his view that the drug benefit needs to be scaled back, indeed even bragging about it at times."
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LMAO... so he wants to scale back the pill bill? Ok, I had not seen that, though I doubt too many people would be opposed to scaling that monstrosity back.... especially on providing drug benefits for the wealthy. What is that evil McCain thinking? Fighting the pill bill, which the country cannot afford. What a bastard.

Bottom line... he is STILL not proposing $800 billion in medicare cuts as the messiah is proclaiming. Obama is LYING. Even his beloved media leghumpers are calling him out on his lie. Yet you continue to pretend that Obama is 'speaking the truth'. How sad.
 
Superfreak said:
LMAO... so he wants to scale back the pill bill? Ok, I had not seen that, though I doubt too many people would be opposed to scaling that monstrosity back.... .......
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Translation:

Tiana once again you've proven that I am your b!tch and I was wrong.

Its okay SF. We don't expect anything more from you.
 
Superfreak said:
LMAO... so he wants to scale back the pill bill? Ok, I had not seen that, though I doubt too many people would be opposed to scaling that monstrosity back.... especially on providing drug benefits for the wealthy. What is that evil McCain thinking? Fighting the pill bill, which the country cannot afford. What a bastard.

Bottom line... he is STILL not proposing $800 billion in medicare cuts as the messiah is proclaiming. Obama is LYING. Even his beloved media leghumpers are calling him out on his lie. Yet you continue to pretend that Obama is 'speaking the truth'. How sad.
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Apparently "lying" means "pointing out the actual implications of John McCain's proposals."
 
Dungheap said:
Apparently "lying" means "pointing out the actual implications of John McCain's proposals."
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I'd just like to point out another fact. Factcheck.org said that Obama's claim was solely based on a WSJ article. Clearly it wasn't.
 
Onceler said:
No, I prefer to judge by what they HAVE done, and what they have certainly implied.

Your stupid outrage on this thread is more par for the course; the McCain camp is ginning up a lynching for Obama, and you're upset because a guy who has voted to cut Medicare & who would logically have to in order to keep his promises is somehow being misrepresented....
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LMAO.... speaking of faux outrage... the bolded above is yet another bullshit line of fear mongering from the Obamamites. McCain is doing no such thing.

Again you moron, he THINKS (just as Obama does) that he can do it with cost savings elsewhere. LIKE OBAMA he has NOT said he will cut benefits to make up any shortfalls. THAT is pure Bullshit spin from idiots like you who fell for the bullshit Obama fed to you.

Oh but thats right... lets all proclaim that Obama will cut benefits too... because that would be right in line with your idiocy.
 
LadyT said:
Translation:

Tiana once again you've proven that I am your b!tch and I was wrong.

Its okay SF. We don't expect anything more from you.
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LMAO.... so he is going to cut the wealthy's drug benefits by $800b?

You are seriously reaching.... I know it is hard for you to see the Media call the Messiah out for the friggin lie. But please, continue to ignore everything you see.... Obama is the One. He shall bring forth bountiful fruits, lower oil to $1 a barrell, rid the world of evil corporations and lower the flood waters so that the wealthy can keep their beach front homes etc....
 
Superfreak said:
LMAO.... speaking of faux outrage... the bolded above is yet another bullshit line of fear mongering from the Obamamites. McCain is doing no such thing.

Again you moron, he THINKS (just as Obama does) that he can do it with cost savings elsewhere. LIKE OBAMA he has NOT said he will cut benefits to make up any shortfalls. THAT is pure Bullshit spin from idiots like you who fell for the bullshit Obama fed to you.

Oh but thats right... lets all proclaim that Obama will cut benefits too... because that would be right in line with your idiocy.
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Hey, Dumbo - Obama is increasing taxes, and getting called a socialist for it. That's one of the reasons he is saying he can pay for everything; he lays out where the money comes from in great detail, if you ever want to check it out.

Whereas McCain, on this Medicare thing, has been very vague & kind of all over the board. It's a total contrast, but you keep making the deranged point that "if McCain has to cut, then so does Obama! He can't pay for it either!"
 
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