Obama is wrong on Afghanistan

I have to believe a few things and not get overlyemotional and bite my nose off to spite my face
1. Dems are 100 times less likely to start a war. Bill wasn't affraid to unleash a few american or isreal jets but he didn't invade/occupy anybody nor did Carter.
2. Obama will exit gracefully from Afghanistclusterfuck as soon as we are out of Iraq.
3. He's posturing centrist to win independend vote and look tougher than the mostly republican(and juvinilley promoted by me) created wussy dem male image solidified on most dem males.
 
I have to believe a few things and not get overlyemotional and bite my nose off to spite my face
1. Dems are 100 times less likely to start a war. Bill wasn't affraid to unleash a few american or isreal jets but he didn't invade/occupy anybody nor did Carter.
2. Obama will exit gracefully from Afghanistclusterfuck as soon as we are out of Iraq.
3. He's posturing centrist to win independend vote and look tougher than the mostly republican(and juvinilley promoted by me) created wussy dem male image solidified on most dem males.

Well it's good to see you admit to this!

And I hope that you are right.
 
Hillary supporters need to realize what an opportunity is at hand including for woman.
Woman, do you want
1. 8 more years of Con old school
2. 8 years of Dem president and huge dem congressional majority who are behind you exponentially more than the neocons.
 
You know what really concerns me bac, is that I see that anti-war activists and the left in this country, for instance, the editors of The Nation, have sold their souls to the Democrats. They have made the decision to back OBama, and by extension, Democrats. In doing so they cede the moral standing, and sign onto the Democratic party’s stance that Afghanistan is the “good war” and the biggest problem with attacking Iraq was that it “distracted” from Afghanistan. Now they have managed to tie much of the anti-war movement to a candidate who is going to move our troops from Iraq to Afghanistan, and how can they object? That’s the “good war”.

The left and the anti-war movement in this country has behaved so stupidly, and we haven’t even begun to see the price of that.

Now you know why I'm neither a democrat or a liberal. In my opinion, neither has the courage of their convictions and both are as easily led into goosesteppin' behavior as the republicans. It's the principle of convienence.

Even if one is determined to support Obama, at least have the courage of your conviction to hold HIM to his antiwar rhetoric, not you become a warmonger because it's convienent.

Many of the same people who railed about how Iraq was a war for oil and profit, refuse, absolutely REFUSE to look at the evidence of how the Caspian Sea Pipeline plays into our actions in Afghanistan. The same people who railed about the installed puppet government in Iraq have now become supporters of our installed puppet government in Afghanistan.

Pakistan is now the new Cambodia and Iran .. 'cept they have nukes.

We are an invented people my sister .. easily manipulated.
 
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Hillary supporters need to realize what an opportunity is at hand including for woman.
Woman, do you want
1. 8 more years of Con old school
2. 8 years of Dem president and huge dem congressional majority who are behind you exponentially more than the neocons.
I will NEVER again make this argument to a woman. Not when Dem nominees are thinking about wooing a republican lite VP candidate. If given the choice between a pseudo-republican and a real republican people will choose the real republican.
 
Let's let Barack govern awhile before we crucify him.
If you think he doesn't have to say anything that he's not 100% behind to get elected your lost.
 
The American mind is an amazing thing to behold.

Surely the Gods must be laughing.

Even after all the bullshit Bush crammed down the American mouth .. we continue to swallow.

Truly amazing.
The people laughing are the ones who want us dead when they look at the bullshit "oh, if we only just TALK to them all will be well" and "let the police handle it" crap coming from mindless twits with rose colored glasses.
 
The people laughing are the ones who want us dead when they look at the bullshit "oh, if we only just TALK to them all will be well" and "let the police handle it" crap coming from mindless twits with rose colored glasses.

Simply amazing.

Somebody convinced you that one could simply murder a tactic.

Mindboggling.

Since we've been on the course to murder terrorism, the US economy has faltered, the US military is broken and we've been paying for this misadventure by borrowing deeper in debt .. and in the meantime Iraq is kicking US forces out, Iran is stronger than ever in the region and as soon as Americans leave will forge ever stronger ties with Iraq .. AND both the Taliban and Al Queda have gotten stronger .. AND .. your cowboy macho notion of "go git 'em" only extends to small countries we don't depend on or who have six-guns as big as ours.

Are you tough talking cowboys going to chase ghosts/terrorists into Saudia Arabia?

Hell to the NO you aren't no matter how many terrorists from there bomb US buildings.

Are you cowboys going to chase ghosts into Pakistan .. where the ghost known as Bin Laden probably is if he's still alive or ever was?

Might bomb there a bit, but you ain't sending ground forces into Pakistan.

How much of Africa will the cowboys invade chasing ghosts?

If the SCO intervenes in Afghanistan .. how much are the cowboys will to invest .. in chasing ghosts?

"Rose-colored glasses" ???

You speak from experience.

Oh yeah .. that "talking" thing .. worked with North Korea. You cowboys were fucking it up so adults stepped in from other countries and solved it in about 5 minutes.
 
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Simply amazing.

Somebody convinced you that one could simply murder a tactic.

Mindboggling.

Since we've been on the course to murder terrorism, the US economy has faltered, the US military is broken and we've been paying for this misadventure by borrowing deeper in debt .. and in the meantime Iraq is kicking US forces out, Iran is stronger than ever in the region and as soon as Americans leave will forge ever stronger ties with Iraq .. AND both the Taliban and Al Queda have gotten stronger .. AND .. your cowboy macho notion of "go git 'em" only extends to small countries we don't depend on or who have six-guns as big as ours.

Are you tough talking cowboys going to chase ghosts/terrorists into Saudia Arabia?

Hell to the NO you aren't no matter how many terrorists from there bomb US buildings.

Are you cowboys going to chase ghosts into Pakistan .. where the ghost known as Bin Laden probably is if he's still alive or ever was?

Might bomb there a bit, but you ain't sending ground forces into Pakistan.

How much of Africa will the cowboys invade chasing ghosts?

If the SCO intervenes in Afghanistan .. how much are the cowboys will to invest .. in chasing ghosts?

"Rose-colored glasses" ???

You speak from experience.

Oh yeah .. that "talking" thing .. worked with North Korea. You cowboys were fucking it up so adults stepped in from other countries and solved it in about 5 minutes.
Your argument is based on several ridiculous assumptions.

First of all, we are not fighting terrorism as a tactic. We are fighting international organizations who use terrorist tactics. It is far different from fighting a nation state, but can include fighting a nation state when the nation state is a willing ally to the terrorist organization.

The topic of the thread YOU started is whether reinforcing Afghanistan is a good idea. You say no because Iraq is a cluster fuck. You may as well say you do not like apples because orange juice is too acidic for your tastes. Iraq and Afghanistan are WAY different with respect to the war on terrorism. You refuse to recognize that basic fact.

As has been pointed out many, many times before, the people who attacked the U.S. were FROM Saudi Arabia, but that in no way implies Saudi Arabia as a country is or was involved. Al Queda is an ethnically diverse organization, united by their belief in a radical version of Islam that includes a very stron anti-west sentiment in addition to the belief that infidels are to be killed without quarter. Al Queda has membership from countries world wide. Does that mean all those countries are involved with Al Queda? Nope.

So, to answer your stupid question, no one will need to chase down any "ghosts" in Saudi Arabia, or elsewhere in Africa, SE Asia, etc. Afghanistan is different: they were using Afghanistan as a safe haven - with the approval Afghanistan's government. That makes Afghanistan an apple, while you want to discuss why oranges taste bad.

However, the Al Queda elements in Pakistan are NOT ghosts. We know they are there. The whole fucking world knows they are there, except you, who think we are chasing ghosts. But knowing they are in the mountains of the borderlands, and knowing WHERE in those mountains are two different things.

Pakistan knows they are there and have even sent their own troops into the area at our request. They have not been very successful, due to limited assets. So we need to add our forces by pressuring Pakistan to give us permission to cross the border in limited areas.

As for North Korea, last I looked Kim may be a despotic ass, but I seriously doubt anyone but you would realistically compare him to Islamic extremist terrorists. As far as I know Kim is not promoting a mandate that includes the destruction of any who do not believe in his version of religion. In short, you just extended your dislike of apples to disliking watermelon, based on your dislike of oranges.
 
Your argument is based on several ridiculous assumptions.

First of all, we are not fighting terrorism as a tactic. We are fighting international organizations who use terrorist tactics. It is far different from fighting a nation state, but can include fighting a nation state when the nation state is a willing ally to the terrorist organization.

The topic of the thread YOU started is whether reinforcing Afghanistan is a good idea. You say no because Iraq is a cluster fuck. You may as well say you do not like apples because orange juice is too acidic for your tastes. Iraq and Afghanistan are WAY different with respect to the war on terrorism. You refuse to recognize that basic fact.

As has been pointed out many, many times before, the people who attacked the U.S. were FROM Saudi Arabia, but that in no way implies Saudi Arabia as a country is or was involved. Al Queda is an ethnically diverse organization, united by their belief in a radical version of Islam that includes a very stron anti-west sentiment in addition to the belief that infidels are to be killed without quarter. Al Queda has membership from countries world wide. Does that mean all those countries are involved with Al Queda? Nope.

So, to answer your stupid question, no one will need to chase down any "ghosts" in Saudi Arabia, or elsewhere in Africa, SE Asia, etc. Afghanistan is different: they were using Afghanistan as a safe haven - with the approval Afghanistan's government. That makes Afghanistan an apple, while you want to discuss why oranges taste bad.

However, the Al Queda elements in Pakistan are NOT ghosts. We know they are there. The whole fucking world knows they are there, except you, who think we are chasing ghosts. But knowing they are in the mountains of the borderlands, and knowing WHERE in those mountains are two different things.

Pakistan knows they are there and have even sent their own troops into the area at our request. They have not been very successful, due to limited assets. So we need to add our forces by pressuring Pakistan to give us permission to cross the border in limited areas.

As for North Korea, last I looked Kim may be a despotic ass, but I seriously doubt anyone but you would realistically compare him to Islamic extremist terrorists. As far as I know Kim is not promoting a mandate that includes the destruction of any who do not believe in his version of religion. In short, you just extended your dislike of apples to disliking watermelon, based on your dislike of oranges.

Along with your misplaced goofiness about oranges, you don't know much about what you're talking about .. and frankly, you never do.

First of all, we are not fighting terrorism as a tactic. We are fighting international organizations who use terrorist tactics.

NEWSFLASH: Terrorism IS a tactic and the "war on terrorism" is a hoax .. so says the Rand Corporation .. who in case you aren't familiar with, is a leading adviser to the United States military. They have concluded that terrorists should be perceived and described as criminals not holy warriors and that there is no battlefield solution to terrorism .. thus, you cannot murder a tactic.

It is also not surprising that the Rand Corporation further suggests that a second aspect of a counterterrorism effort would minimize the use of US military force. It further concludes that using the term ‘war on terror’ suggest that there is a battlefield solution. Terrorist should be perceived as criminals not as warriors. Nearly every US ally, including the UK and Australia, has stopped using the term ‘war on terror’ and replaced it with the term ‘counterterrorism’.

Pakistan knows they are there and have even sent their own troops into the area at our request. They have not been very successful, due to limited assets. So we need to add our forces by pressuring Pakistan to give us permission to cross the border in limited areas.

That isn't just goofy, it's downright Hee-Haw stupid and demonstrates your ignorance of the subject. It appears that you've never heard of the ISI or Pakistan's deal with so-called terrorists. You quite obviously have no clue of the tensions between Pakistan and Afghanistan, or Pakistan and India. You have no clue about the history and politics of the tribal areas.

The reality is that almost seven years after September 11 and the US-led invasion of Afghanistan, both counter-terrorism on the Pakistan border and the war in Afghanistan are going backwards. More foreign fighters are finding their way to Pakistan; there has been a 40 per cent rise in rebel activity on the Afghanistan side of the border since Pakistan adopted its policy of coddling, rather than combating the FATA-based militants; and, by many accounts, the ISI has a tighter grip on power in Islamabad than ever before

The topic of the thread YOU started is whether reinforcing Afghanistan is a good idea. You say no because Iraq is a cluster fuck.

That's not my argument at all. Getting the US deeper involved in Afghanistan is a stupid fuclking idea all by itself, irrespective of the stupid fucking idea of invading Iraq. I started this thread because Obama promised to end "the mindset that took us into Iraq" .. but he's following the exact same course that will produce the same consequences.

Your ridiculous "go git 'em" cowboy stupid notion about murdering a tactic has produced NOTHING that suggests the US is any safer from "terrorists." We've spent a shitload of US taxpayer money, including pouring billions into Afghanistan, our military suffers, oil costs spikes .. and we're not one damn iota safer.

The point about North Korea wasn't that Kim is a terrorist .. althoiugh many would call him that .. the point is that talking and diplomacy often works .. which would indeed be news to anyone, like yourself, who doesn't understand the limits of military power.

I could go on .. but you are not very learned on the issue.

Regurgitated Isalmophobia paranoia is a poor substitute for knowledge.
 
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Obama sold out the anti war backers.
He said "take troups out of Iraq and send them to Afghanistan".
The should Get the fuck out of both countries. How many millions of Afghanies to we need to kill for the 18 Saudis that attack on 911?

no, those countries derserve a chance at democracy
 
Along with your misplaced goofiness about oranges, you don't know much about what you're talking about .. and frankly, you never do.



NEWSFLASH: Terrorism IS a tactic and the "war on terrorism" is a hoax .. so says the Rand Corporation .. who in case you aren't familiar with, is a leading adviser to the United States military. They have concluded that terrorists should be perceived and described as criminals not holy warriors
and that there is no battlefield solution to terrorism .. thus, you cannot murder a tactic.

It is also not surprising that the Rand Corporation further suggests that a second aspect of a counterterrorism effort would minimize the use of US military force. It further concludes that using the term ‘war on terror’ suggest that there is a battlefield solution. Terrorist should be perceived as criminals not as warriors. Nearly every US ally, including the UK and Australia, has stopped using the term ‘war on terror’ and replaced it with the term ‘counterterrorism’.



That isn't just goofy, it's downright Hee-Haw stupid and demonstrates your ignorance of the subject. It appears that you've never heard of the ISI or Pakistan's deal with so-called terrorists. You quite obviously have no clue of the tensions between Pakistan and Afghanistan, or Pakistan and India. You have no clue about the history and politics of the tribal areas.

The reality is that almost seven years after September 11 and the US-led invasion of Afghanistan, both counter-terrorism on the Pakistan border and the war in Afghanistan are going backwards. More foreign fighters are finding their way to Pakistan; there has been a 40 per cent rise in rebel activity on the Afghanistan side of the border since Pakistan adopted its policy of coddling, rather than combating the FATA-based militants; and, by many accounts, the ISI has a tighter grip on power in Islamabad than ever before



That's not my argument at all. Getting the US deeper involved in Afghanistan is a stupid fuclking idea all by itself, irrespective of the stupid fucking idea of invading Iraq. I started this thread because Obama promised to end "the mindset that took us into Iraq" .. but he's following the exact same course that will produce the same consequences.

Your ridiculous "go git 'em" cowboy stupid notion about murdering a tactic has produced NOTHING that suggests the US is any safer from "terrorists." We've spent a shitload of US taxpayer money, including pouring billions into Afghanistan, our military suffers, oil costs spikes .. and we're not one damn iota safer.

The point about North Korea wasn't that Kim is a terrorist .. althoiugh many would call him that .. the point is that talking and diplomacy often works .. which would indeed be news to anyone, like yourself, who doesn't understand the limits of military power.

I could go on .. but you are not very learned on the issue.

Regurgitated Isalmophobia paranoia is a poor substitute for knowledge.
The only individual without a fucking clue what they are talking about is you.

You cannot even understand the fundamental difference between working with the head of a nation state, and working with a terrorist organization. For that matter, you don't even know what a terrorist is. Kim is NOT a terrorist, nor has he ever been a terrorist, nor has he ever resorted to terrorist tactics. He is a megalomaniacal despot, but not a terrorist.

Diplomacy can, and quite often does, work when dealing with the head of a nation state - even despotic ones. Diplomacy does not work when dealng with terrorist organizations such as OBL heads because the mandates of such organizations are completely unacceptable to our society, and their mandate allows no compromise on their part. Are you even minimally aware of the mandates of Al Queda?

And of course, then you have to come out with the accusation of generalized Islamophobia. Most people are fully cognizant of the differences between the general religion of Islam, and the ideology of radical Islamic extremists as those involved with Al Queda. There is no reason to fear the motivation of most followers of Islam. There IS reason to fear the motivations of radical Islamic terrorists. They themselves have openly declared their mandate, and killing ay who do not join them is part of that mandate.

But typical of assholes who cannot actually defend their stance, you resprt to lies and distortions about the stance of the opposition, then ridicule your lies as if you were counterpointing the real argument. Either that or you do not understand that the radical Islam fundamentalism of Al Queda is a far cry from the general religion of Islam. Which is it? Do you lack the minimal comprehension to separate Islam the religion from radical extremists, or did you choose to lie about it when trying to label my (and most others who have a clue) stance on Al Queda as a phobia against all Islam?

As for "murdering a tactic" that has already been explained, but obviously went way over your head. I don't think it can be explained without using words with more than one syllable, so getting any understanding from you on the concept is unlikely. But once more: we are not fighting a TACTIC. We are fighting a GROUP of subhuman assholes who USE the tactic. And to fight those who USE the tactic, we are denying them (as much as possible) one of the primary requirements (that being sanctuary) from those who use the tactic of terrorism. And by your own admission, "there has been a 40 per cent rise in rebel activity on the Afghanistan side of the border since Pakistan adopted its policy of coddling, rather than combating the FATA-based militants" So terrorism RISES after Pakistan stops killing them and starts coddling them. What a fucking surprise that things backslide when they are not being hunted and killed any more. It obviously means that fighting them does no good. (but wait, it was not until Pakistan STOPPED hunting them down that they started to bounce back....) Clear enough? (Probably not.)

How about this:
They bad guys.
They do bad things.
Others help bad guys do bad things.
We stop others helping bad guys so bad guys can't do as many bad things.
Allies help battle bad guys for while, then stop.
Bad guys gain in power when allies stop fighting them.

Is that more clear?
 
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He's talking down to you because you're black. ;)

Make that he's attempting to talk down to me because I'm black .. but I'm far too educated and intelligent for his clownish attempt to elicit any sense that he's actually capable of talking down to me.

I've not only exposed that he's not too bright and he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, but also that he's a racist and a liar. In other words, I win.

Take for instance his insistence on arguning that Kim is not a terrorist when I have already CLEARLY stated to him .. The point about North Korea wasn't that Kim is a terrorist .. although many would call him that .. the point is that talking and diplomacy often works .. which would indeed be news to anyone, like yourself, who doesn't understand the limits of military power.

He's not bright enough to know that North Korea was on the US TERRORISM blacklist, which in the US view makes Kim a TERRORIST, not mine because I never called Kim a terrorist.

The point was made to demonstrate how cowboy stupid his comment about "talking" was .. as if diplomacy is a sign of weakness. .. All of that flew right over his head and he's still arguing an irrelevent point while I continue to spank his ass with facts.

Instead of arguning against something I didn't say, if he were a capable debater who actually had a point he could have taken on this .. NEWSFLASH: Terrorism IS a tactic and the "war on terrorism" is a hoax .. so says the Rand Corporation .. who in case you aren't familiar with, is a leading adviser to the United States military. They have concluded that terrorists should be perceived and described as criminals not holy warriors.

Prove the Rand Corporation wrong .. but he didn't touch it .. because he's not smart enough .. but presumes to talk down to me in his South Parkish vanilla ebonic-speak .. which I found quite humorous. I speak ebonics very well AND speak the Queen's english better than he does. Call it a gift.

But wait .. it gets better ..

I challenged his dumb ass to produce the results of the so-called war on terror .. Your ridiculous "go git 'em" cowboy stupid notion about murdering a tactic has produced NOTHING that suggests the US is any safer from "terrorists." We've spent a shitload of US taxpayer money, including pouring billions into Afghanistan, our military suffers, oil costs spikes .. and we're not one damn iota safer.

If he had a point this would be easy for him to argue .. but he doesn't actually have a point .. so concludes the Rand Corporation and many other people with brains. What he has is a conditioned mind, incapable of analyzing through to a logical conclusion, only capable of conditioned response.

This is what presumes to talk down to me because I'm black .. and, my brother, you can believe me when I say I am so very happy to be the one to demonstrate that trying to talk down to black people ain't (eb) always a good idea.
 
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Make that he's attempting to talk down to me because I'm black .. but I'm far too educated and intelligent for his clownish attempt to elicit any sense that he's actually capable of talking down to me.

I've not only exposed that he's not too bright and he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about, but also that he's a racist and a liar. In other words, I win.

Take for instance his insistence on arguning that Kim is not a terrorist when I have already CLEARLY stated to him .. The point about North Korea wasn't that Kim is a terrorist .. although many would call him that .. the point is that talking and diplomacy often works .. which would indeed be news to anyone, like yourself, who doesn't understand the limits of military power.

He's not bright enough to know that North Korea was on the US TERRORISM blacklist, which in the US view makes Kim a TERRORIST, not mine because I never called Kim a terrorist.

The point was made to demonstrate how cowboy stupid his comment about "talking" was .. as if diplomacy is a sign of weakness. .. All of that flew right over his head and he's still arguing an irrelevent point while I continue to spank his ass with facts.

Instead of arguning against something I didn't say, if he were a capable debater who actually had a point he could have taken on this .. NEWSFLASH: Terrorism IS a tactic and the "war on terrorism" is a hoax .. so says the Rand Corporation .. who in case you aren't familiar with, is a leading adviser to the United States military. They have concluded that terrorists should be perceived and described as criminals not holy warriors.

Prove the Rand Corporation wrong .. but he didn't touch it .. because he's not smart enough .. but presumes to talk down to me in his South Parkish vanilla ebonic-speak .. which I found quite humorous. I speak ebonics very well AND speak the Queen's english better than he does. Call it a gift.

But wait .. it gets better ..

I challenged his dumb ass to produce the results of the so-called war on terror .. Your ridiculous "go git 'em" cowboy stupid notion about murdering a tactic has produced NOTHING that suggests the US is any safer from "terrorists." We've spent a shitload of US taxpayer money, including pouring billions into Afghanistan, our military suffers, oil costs spikes .. and we're not one damn iota safer.

If he had a point this would be easy for him to argue .. but he doesn't actually have a point .. so concludes the Rand Corporation and many other people with brains. What he has is a conditioned mind, incapable of analyzing through to a logical conclusion, only capable of conditioned response.

This is what presumes to talk down to me because I'm black .. and, my brother, you can believe me when I say I am so very happy to be the one to demonstrate that trying to talk down to black people ain't (eb) always a good idea.
You ignorant shit - I talk down to you because you are a mindless twit. Being black has nothing to do with it, as has been discussed before, but as always, you gotta do the racists shit. You forget I am 1/4 black also - as well as 1/2 Native American. And let's not mention who FIRST started "talking down" by eluding to the relative intelligence of the poster. You simply cannot debate honestly, can you? It always has to be about personal attacks, and then when your opponent responds in kind, it is because they are racist.

Fuck off. I thought it may actually be worth debating you again, but you have once more proven you cannot debate honestly.
 
anytime BAC is getting his ass handed to him he whips out the race card.
Obama just did the same thing last week.
 
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