Obama is wrong on Afghanistan

So you've got a boyfriend who went to Iraq, came back and is screwed up, and you're not trying to talk me out of it?

I met my bf after he came back, and he was already one of the founders of the IVAW and on their board. That is how we met actually. Codepink is very involved with the IVAW, and I met him in DC one weekend when I went for a march and to do the IVAW sponsored “die-in”.

He’s less screwed up than his not wanting to see that series implies.

But what do you mean I’m not trying to talk you out of it? Are you kidding ib? Don’t you remember I tried to talk you out of it so much, that WRl left the board crying?
 
I met my bf after he came back, and he was already one of the founders of the IVAW and on their board. That is how we met actually. Codepink is very involved with the IVAW, and I met him in DC one weekend when I went for a march and to do the IVAW sponsored “die-in”.

He’s less screwed up than his not wanting to see that series implies.

But what do you mean I’m not trying to talk you out of it? Are you kidding ib? Don’t you remember I tried to talk you out of it so much, that WRl left the board crying?

WRL left the board because of that picture. Did you post that? What a goober.

I'm thinking air force now.
 
WRL left the board because of that picture. Did you post that? What a goober.

I'm thinking air force now.

Yes I posted that to show you what could happen to you if you join. If you join the airforce they will make you drop bombs on civilians, and some day you could become John McCain so think about that.
 
I've got a friend in the service who's trying hard to recruit me. He's having me come down to fort lewis to negotiate a contract - flight school straight out of boot camp, signatures from the secretary of the army, etc. Maybe I'll fly for the Army. I dunno. Better than being shot at.

Something big with wings, slow, with engines. That's all I want. And a job when I get out, and have you tax payers take care of my debt for me.
 
Air force/army pilots don't all fly fighters. There are transport planes, cargo planes, para-drop planes, scout planes, etc.
 
Air force/army pilots don't all fly fighters. There are transport planes, cargo planes, para-drop planes, scout planes, etc.
If you do army flight school it will be choppers. You will train at Fort Rucker Alabama after basic and if you complete you will be a warrant officer. So you will fly in combat zones, low and not so slow. Black Hawks, Apaches OH 58C and D aka Kiowa. Had I known about the Army Warrant program and that you could fly helecopoters without a degree I would have done that.
 
Air force/army pilots don't all fly fighters. There are transport planes, cargo planes, para-drop planes, scout planes, etc.
The airforce flies the F-16 fighter craft, they also fly the A-10 warthog, but I think that is mostly Airguard units, but the Airforce does indeed fly combat aircraft. Oh also the B-52 bomber, the B-1 and the B-2 bomber.
 
I've got a friend in the service who's trying hard to recruit me. He's having me come down to fort lewis to negotiate a contract - flight school straight out of boot camp, signatures from the secretary of the army, etc. Maybe I'll fly for the Army. I dunno. Better than being shot at.

Something big with wings, slow, with engines. That's all I want. And a job when I get out, and have you tax payers take care of my debt for me.

So what you do want? Do you want me to talk you out of it? I can have a couple of ex-jarheads kick the shit out of you, if you think it will help. Or, I can send you some truth in recruiting material.

Why do you want to go kill people, seriously? We are at war. We will be at war for some time to come. You will kill people.
 
So what you do want? Do you want me to talk you out of it? I can have a couple of ex-jarheads kick the shit out of you, if you think it will help. Or, I can send you some truth in recruiting material.

Why do you want to go kill people, seriously? We are at war. We will be at war for some time to come. You will kill people.

It's selfish. I want to get out of debt and have the gov't pay for my flight training. The other option is to pay for my own flight training for $70,000 and still not be at the top of the list for jobs post-graduation AND be another $70k in student debt.
 
I don't agree with Good Luck's view which, rather than reproduce his entire post, is most succinctly expressed in the following paragraph:



None of the islamist terrorism that has been visited in Europe in recent years was directed by OBL or Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. None of it. All of the terrorist outrages in London, Madrid and further afield in Bali, for example, were from home-grown, home-radicalised islamists. A significant number of these islamists had trained in Afghanistan but an even greater number had ben trained in Pakistan, the border area of which has become as lawless as anywhere in Afghanistan as a consequence of the occupation there. The radicalisation that provided the motivation for these home-grown terrorists occured, however, in Europe, in terraced houses in Manchester, Bradford and Birmingham or apartments in Hamburg and Madrid.

Far from reducing the threat posed from home-radicalised islamists the war in Afghanistan, along with Iraq and the Palestinain-Israeli conflict, has only further polarised disaffected muslim opinion in Europe.

Throwing more troops at the problem, a policy Obama ridiculed when it was proposed for Iraq, will only lead to a furtehr escalation in the conflict in Afghanistan and a further polarisation between young muslims and wider European society. Another more intelligent, more political approach is long, long overdue.
First of all, and no offense to Europeans, but as I stated in an earlier post, the first duty of the U.S. government is protection of U.S. citizens. As such, our primary concern is with Al Queda, as they are the group responsible for all attacks against U.S. soil and assets over the last decade plus.

Second, if you pay any attention to the mandates of Muslim extremist groups, then you'd know that demanding a "political" approach is wishful thinking at its worst. These people want their version of Islam to be the world religion, and anyone who refuses to believe is to be exterminated. Do you honestly believe people with that kind of mandate will ever be willing to talk reasonably about their political relationships to nation states around the globe? The only political reaction that will have any effect on radicals of this type is appeasement. Appeasement only leads to more demands backed by more violence.

The problem of "Home grown" terrorists is certain a different problem from state sponsored terrorist organizations, and as such needs its own tactics and strategies. But backing off from states who sponsor terrorism is certainly NOT a viable response to curbing "home grown" terrorism. Terrorists are being trained in Pakistan because Afghanistan is all but closed to them. That is a good thing. It means they are feeling the limitations imposed by controlling their sanctuaries. If we continue the same type of strategy, and using an influx of force take the battle to those areas inside Pakistan being used as sanctuary (hopefully with Pakistan's approval and/or cooperation), they'll be even more limited - which would also be a good thing in the long run.
 
Blackascoal, you're an idiot as well as a terrorist.

Tell me this is satire.

I'm betting you're not smart enough to prove me an idiot.

Go ahead .. let's see if you can form an intellectual argument about anything I've said that I can't intellectually refute.

I've read your posts some of your posts mr. genius .. you ain't that bright.

... but I've duly noted your concern. :)
 
First of all, and no offense to Europeans, but as I stated in an earlier post, the first duty of the U.S. government is protection of U.S. citizens. As such, our primary concern is with Al Queda, as they are the group responsible for all attacks against U.S. soil and assets over the last decade plus.

Second, if you pay any attention to the mandates of Muslim extremist groups, then you'd know that demanding a "political" approach is wishful thinking at its worst. These people want their version of Islam to be the world religion, and anyone who refuses to believe is to be exterminated. Do you honestly believe people with that kind of mandate will ever be willing to talk reasonably about their political relationships to nation states around the globe? The only political reaction that will have any effect on radicals of this type is appeasement. Appeasement only leads to more demands backed by more violence.

The problem of "Home grown" terrorists is certain a different problem from state sponsored terrorist organizations, and as such needs its own tactics and strategies. But backing off from states who sponsor terrorism is certainly NOT a viable response to curbing "home grown" terrorism. Terrorists are being trained in Pakistan because Afghanistan is all but closed to them. That is a good thing. It means they are feeling the limitations imposed by controlling their sanctuaries. If we continue the same type of strategy, and using an influx of force take the battle to those areas inside Pakistan being used as sanctuary (hopefully with Pakistan's approval and/or cooperation), they'll be even more limited - which would also be a good thing in the long run.

The American mind is an amazing thing to behold.

Surely the Gods must be laughing.

Even after all the bullshit Bush crammed down the American mouth .. we continue to swallow.

Truly amazing.
 
Afghanistan: The Other Illegal War

The U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was every bit as illegal as the invasion of Iraq. Why, then, do so many Americans see it as justifiable?


(Because they're stupid.)

So far, President Bush's plan to maintain a permanent U.S. military presence in Iraq has been stymied by resistance from the Iraqi government. Barack Obama's timetable for withdrawal of American troops evidently has the backing of Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki, Bush has mentioned a "time horizon," and John McCain has waffled. Yet Obama favors leaving between 35,000 and 80,000 U.S. occupation troops there indefinitely to train Iraqi security forces and carry out "counterinsurgency operations." That would not end the occupation. We must call for bringing home -- not redeploying -- all U.S. troops and mercenaries, closing all U.S. military bases and relinquishing all efforts to control Iraqi oil.

In light of stepped-up violence in Afghanistan, and for political reasons -- following Obama's lead -- Bush will be moving troops from Iraq to Afghanistan. Although the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan was as illegal as the invasion of Iraq, many Americans see it as a justifiable response to the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, and the casualties in that war have been lower than those in Iraq -- so far. Practically no one in the United States is currently questioning the legality or propriety of U.S. military involvement in Afghanistan. The cover of Time magazine calls it "The Right War."

The U.N. Charter provides that all member states must settle their international disputes by peaceful means, and no nation can use military force except in self-defense or when authorized by the Security Council. After the 9/11 attacks, the council passed two resolutions, neither of which authorized the use of military force in Afghanistan. Resolutions 1368 and 1373 condemned the Sept. 11 attacks and ordered the freezing of assets; the criminalizing of terrorist activity; the prevention of the commission of and support for terrorist attacks; and the taking of necessary steps to prevent the commission of terrorist activity, including the sharing of information. In addition, it urged ratification and enforcement of the international conventions against terrorism.

The invasion of Afghanistan was not legitimate self-defense under article 51 of the charter because the attacks on Sept. 11 were criminal attacks, not "armed attacks" by another country. Afghanistan did not attack the United States. In fact, 15 of the 19 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia. Furthermore, there was not an imminent threat of an armed attack on the United States after Sept. 11, or Bush would not have waited three weeks before initiating his October 2001 bombing campaign. The necessity for self-defense must be "instant, overwhelming, leaving no choice of means, and no moment for deliberation." This classic principle of self-defense in international law has been affirmed by the Nuremberg Tribunal and the U.N. General Assembly.

Bush's justification for attacking Afghanistan was that it was harboring Osama bin Laden and training terrorists. Iranians could have made the same argument to attack the United States after they overthrew the vicious Shah Reza Pahlavi in 1979 and he was given safe haven in the United States. The people in Latin American countries whose dictators were trained in torture techniques at the School of the Americas could likewise have attacked the torture training facility in Fort Benning, Ga., under that specious rationale. Those who conspired to hijack airplanes and kill thousands of people on 9/11 are guilty of crimes against humanity. They must be identified and brought to justice in accordance with the law. But retaliation by invading Afghanistan is not the answer and will only lead to the deaths of more of our troops and Afghans.

-- more at link
http://www.alternet.org/audits/93473/afghanistan:_the_other_illegal_war/
 
You know what really concerns me bac, is that I see that anti-war activists and the left in this country, for instance, the editors of The Nation, have sold their souls to the Democrats. They have made the decision to back OBama, and by extension, Democrats. In doing so they cede the moral standing, and sign onto the Democratic party’s stance that Afghanistan is the “good war” and the biggest problem with attacking Iraq was that it “distracted” from Afghanistan. Now they have managed to tie much of the anti-war movement to a candidate who is going to move our troops from Iraq to Afghanistan, and how can they object? That’s the “good war”.

The left and the anti-war movement in this country has behaved so stupidly, and we haven’t even begun to see the price of that.
 
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