On being a blank slate and "free will"

Celticguy said:
but they still need to eat.
they will become more docile to avoid angering the alpha.
but self preservation rules this.
Click to expand...
Nothing to do with the discussion.

So you think 'instinct' is how they know that people will feed them?

Is that what wolves did with early man?

I think not.
 
ZenMode said:
If you really pay attention to the process of thinking, what you'll see is that thoughts just happen, whether we want them to or not, we can't stop them and we have no idea what they're going to be until they show up in consciousness. I mentioned previously, but how often are you doing something (work, watching TV, reading, etc) and some random thought suddenly pops into consciousness? "I really should stop drinking so much soda" or "Did I close the garage door when I got home" or "I should mow the front yard soon. It's looking pretty bad".

What we call reasoning is just the flow of subsequent thoughts, after the initial thought, arising in consciousness, which we also don't control or initiate. They just happen as the initial thought did and those thoughts are dependent on the entirety of every external influence that has structured the neurological structure of your brain.

In order to have free will, there would have to be a self that exists outside the flow of thought/consciousness and had some visibility/control over the neurological activity that creates thoughts. There is no evidence of an I or self and what we subjectively view I and self is just our experience of thoughts flowing through consciousness.

As an experiment on the existence of free will, if you're willing to play along, take a few seconds, minute, whatever (before reading below) to think of some movies.

.


.

.

.

.

.

So, the first thing to be aware of is that this is about as free a choice as you'll ever make. The only real limitation is that you can't select movies that you've never heard of or don't exist, but you are quite literally free to pick ANY movies you want. No outside force is restricting you in any way.

Now, assuming you played along and have some movie titles in mind, here's the question: Were you free to pick a movie that didn't occur to you to pick? In other words, as movie titles were entering your consciousness, could you have picked one that didn't occur to you? For example, you've most definitely heard of Wizard of Oz, but due to the current status of your neurons in your brain, Wizard of Oz didn't occur to you.
Click to expand...

Zen: "If you really pay attention to the process of thinking, what you'll see is that thoughts just happen, whether we want them to or not, we can't stop them and ..."
Jack: I would refer to this as the subconscious.

Zen: "... some random thought suddenly pops into consciousness?"
Jack: OK. From the subconscious to the conscious. I'm following this.

Zen: "What we call reasoning is just the flow of subsequent thoughts, ..."
Jack: OK. Still with you on this.

Zen: "In order to have free will, there would have to be a self that exists outside the flow of thought/consciousness and had some visibility/control over the neurological activity that creates thoughts. There is no evidence of an I or self and what we subjectively view I and self is just our experience of thoughts flowing through consciousness."
Jack: Hmmmm ... my understanding of 'Free Will' is that which you 'do', not what you think. I can agree we have no control of our subconscious. Or what 'thought' may pop up in our head. You can 'think' about killing somebody, but as long as you don't actual kill somebody (or maybe you do), you've made a choice. Of all the 'thoughts' in your head, you have the 'Free Will' to pick and choose which ones to act on.

Zen: "As an experiment on the existence of free will ..."
Jack: 'Terminator', 'Die Hard', 'Lost City'.

Zen: "Now, assuming you played along and have some movie titles in mind, here's the question: Were you free to pick a movie that didn't occur to you to pick?"
Jack: No. (I guess I was 'free' to pick a Movie that didn't occur to me, but it didn't occur to me so I didn't pick it)

Zen: "For example, you've most definitely heard of Wizard of Oz, but due to the current status of your neurons in your brain, Wizard of Oz didn't occur to you."
Jack: True.


OK. Let's examine my picks. 'Terminator'. I liked that Movie. My son left for DC and I'm getting rid of a lot of stuff he left behind. One of the things is this large picture (about 2'x3') of Arnold Schwarzenegger in his years as a MuscleMan posing. It's near the front door awaiting a ride to the Goodwill. So ... maybe my subconscious linked to this?

'Die Hard'. I was just watching the News and saw something about Bruce Willis retiring from Acting because of a medical issue. My subconscious may have linked to this? Also, now thinking about it, I think there was a 'Die Hard' movie Poster in the background of the Newscast.

'Lost City'. I JUST saw this Movie Tuesday night. So it's pretty fresh in my mind.

Just off the cuff here, I would point to my subconscious as being 'triggered' by your mention of Movies and what popped up in my head. I agree I have no 'Free Will' as to what pops up in my head.
My understanding of 'Free Will' is what we act upon. Like, would I choose to go see one of those Movies, or not.
 
AssHatZombie said:
wrong.

they can be stopped, or at least highly attenuated.

you just want people to feel powerless, to deny our special human reasoning skills.

we are not dumb animals.

stop trying to dehumanize humanity, thanks.
Click to expand...

It has nothing to do with being powerless or claiming that we don't reason. We reason all the time. It's automatic and not something that we control. That's why you can't reason yourself into believing that 2+2=4.
 
Last edited:
ZenMode said:
=2=4

It has nothing to do with being powerless or claiming that we don't reason. We reason all the time. It's automatic and not something that we control. That's why you can't reason yourself into believing that 2+2=4.
Click to expand...

Yes it is.

it's about you trying convince others of their own powerlessness.

It's a mindfuck, and I call bullshit.

so what's up.
 
Jack said:
Zen: "If you really pay attention to the process of thinking, what you'll see is that thoughts just happen, whether we want them to or not, we can't stop them and ..."
Jack: I would refer to this as the subconscious.

Zen: "... some random thought suddenly pops into consciousness?"
Jack: OK. From the subconscious to the conscious. I'm following this.

Zen: "What we call reasoning is just the flow of subsequent thoughts, ..."
Jack: OK. Still with you on this.

Zen: "In order to have free will, there would have to be a self that exists outside the flow of thought/consciousness and had some visibility/control over the neurological activity that creates thoughts. There is no evidence of an I or self and what we subjectively view I and self is just our experience of thoughts flowing through consciousness."
Jack: Hmmmm ... my understanding of 'Free Will' is that which you 'do', not what you think. I can agree we have no control of our subconscious. Or what 'thought' may pop up in our head. You can 'think' about killing somebody, but as long as you don't actual kill somebody (or maybe you do), you've made a choice. Of all the 'thoughts' in your head, you have the 'Free Will' to pick and choose which ones to act on.

Zen: "As an experiment on the existence of free will ..."
Jack: 'Terminator', 'Die Hard', 'Lost City'.

Zen: "Now, assuming you played along and have some movie titles in mind, here's the question: Were you free to pick a movie that didn't occur to you to pick?"
Jack: No. (I guess I was 'free' to pick a Movie that didn't occur to me, but it didn't occur to me so I didn't pick it)

Zen: "For example, you've most definitely heard of Wizard of Oz, but due to the current status of your neurons in your brain, Wizard of Oz didn't occur to you."
Jack: True.


OK. Let's examine my picks. 'Terminator'. I liked that Movie. My son left for DC and I'm getting rid of a lot of stuff he left behind. One of the things is this large picture (about 2'x3') of Arnold Schwarzenegger in his years as a MuscleMan posing. It's near the front door awaiting a ride to the Goodwill. So ... maybe my subconscious linked to this?

'Die Hard'. I was just watching the News and saw something about Bruce Willis retiring from Acting because of a medical issue. My subconscious may have linked to this? Also, now thinking about it, I think there was a 'Die Hard' movie Poster in the background of the Newscast.

'Lost City'. I JUST saw this Movie Tuesday night. So it's pretty fresh in my mind.

Just off the cuff here, I would point to my subconscious as being 'triggered' by your mention of Movies and what popped up in my head. I agree I have no 'Free Will' as to what pops up in my head.
My understanding of 'Free Will' is what we act upon. Like, would I choose to go see one of those Movies, or not.
Click to expand...

It seems we are largely in agreement, but let's look at two things:

Jack: Hmmmm ... my understanding of 'Free Will' is that which you 'do', not what you think. I can agree we have no control of our subconscious. Or what 'thought' may pop up in our head. You can 'think' about killing somebody, but as long as you don't actual kill somebody (or maybe you do), you've made a choice. Of all the 'thoughts' in your head, you have the 'Free Will' to pick and choose which ones to act on.

You are correct. Free will is about what you do, but what is it that drives your intentional actions? Thoughts, right? You have a thought that you're thirsty and reach for a nearby glass of water. You have a thought that you're hungry and, via subsequent thoughts, decided to either get up and get food or to not get up and get food. The initial thought of "I'm hungry" is out of your control as are the subsequent thoughts that lead to action or inaction, aka "reasoning".

OK. Let's examine my picks. 'Terminator'. I liked that Movie. My son left for DC and I'm getting rid of a lot of stuff he left behind. One of the things is this large picture (about 2'x3') of Arnold Schwarzenegger in his years as a MuscleMan posing. It's near the front door awaiting a ride to the Goodwill. So ... maybe my subconscious linked to this?

'Die Hard'. I was just watching the News and saw something about Bruce Willis retiring from Acting because of a medical issue. My subconscious may have linked to this? Also, now thinking about it, I think there was a 'Die Hard' movie Poster in the background of the Newscast.

'Lost City'. I JUST saw this Movie Tuesday night. So it's pretty fresh in my mind.

Sure, recent events may have impacted why your brain came up with the movies that it did, but we have no visibility or control over the neurological functionality that generates movie names. That process just happens and names appear in consciousness, almost like someone is saying them to you. And since we are only downstream from that process, basically at the end, we are only free to pick movies that our brain pushes into consciousness. We aren't free to pick movies that we KNOW, but don't occur to us.

Here's something relate
 
ZenMode said:
It seems we are largely in agreement, but let's look at two things:

Jack: Hmmmm ... my understanding of 'Free Will' is that which you 'do', not what you think. I can agree we have no control of our subconscious. Or what 'thought' may pop up in our head. You can 'think' about killing somebody, but as long as you don't actual kill somebody (or maybe you do), you've made a choice. Of all the 'thoughts' in your head, you have the 'Free Will' to pick and choose which ones to act on.

You are correct. Free will is about what you do, but what is it that drives your intentional actions? Thoughts, right? You have a thought that you're thirsty and reach for a nearby glass of water. You have a thought that you're hungry and, via subsequent thoughts, decided to either get up and get food or to not get up and get food. The initial thought of "I'm hungry" is out of your control as are the subsequent thoughts that lead to action or inaction, aka "reasoning".

OK. Let's examine my picks. 'Terminator'. I liked that Movie. My son left for DC and I'm getting rid of a lot of stuff he left behind. One of the things is this large picture (about 2'x3') of Arnold Schwarzenegger in his years as a MuscleMan posing. It's near the front door awaiting a ride to the Goodwill. So ... maybe my subconscious linked to this?

'Die Hard'. I was just watching the News and saw something about Bruce Willis retiring from Acting because of a medical issue. My subconscious may have linked to this? Also, now thinking about it, I think there was a 'Die Hard' movie Poster in the background of the Newscast.

'Lost City'. I JUST saw this Movie Tuesday night. So it's pretty fresh in my mind.

Sure, recent events may have impacted why your brain came up with the movies that it did, but we have no visibility or control over the neurological functionality that generates movie names. That process just happens and names appear in consciousness, almost like someone is saying them to you. And since we are only downstream from that process, basically at the end, we are only free to pick movies that our brain pushes into consciousness. We aren't free to pick movies that we KNOW, but don't occur to us.

Here's something relate
Click to expand...

There is no fate.
 
AssHatZombie said:
Yes it is.

it's about you trying convince others of their own powerlessness.

It's a mindfuck, and I call bullshit.

so what's up.
Click to expand...

The reality that we don't have free will is scary to people, but it has nothing to do with being powerless and it has nothing to do with being held accountable, legally if necessary, for things you do. If you're a serial killer because you had a screwed childhood, you're still a serial killer and should be locked away to protect society.

The fact that we don't have free will means we don't control how outside forces impact us. That's not powerlessness - it's what is necessary to reason. You understand that 2+2 = 4 and you understand it whether you want to or not. You read an article and you learn something new whether you want to or not. As of now, I have no desire to learn Chinese, but if I read a story in the Wall Street Journal that convinced me that learning Chinese should be at the top of my list of things to do over the next few years, I couldn't control that. I'm not free to want something more than I want it and I'm not free to NOT want something if I do. I want it exactly as much as I do and that can change if some outside influence changes my mind.
 
ZenMode said:
The reality that we don't have free will is scary to people, but it has nothing to do with being powerless and it has nothing to do with being held accountable, legally if necessary, for things you do. If you're a serial killer because you had a screwed childhood, you're still a serial killer and should be locked away to protect society.

The fact that we don't have free will means we don't control how outside forces impact us. That's not powerlessness - it's what is necessary to reason. You understand that 2+2 = 4 and you understand it whether you want to or not. You read an article and you learn something new whether you want to or not. As of now, I have no desire to learn Chinese, but if I read a story in the Wall Street Journal that convinced me that learning Chinese should be at the top of my list of things to do over the next few years, I couldn't control that. I'm not free to want something more than I want it and I'm not free to NOT want something if I do. I want it exactly as much as I do and that can change if some outside influence changes my mind.
Click to expand...

I dispute your premise.

Yes there are instincts and habits and patterns, but we can rise above it all and do something different. that is exercizing free will.

there is no fate. --The Terminator
 
ZenMode said:
It seems we are largely in agreement, but let's look at two things:

Jack: Hmmmm ... my understanding of 'Free Will' is that which you 'do', not what you think. I can agree we have no control of our subconscious. Or what 'thought' may pop up in our head. You can 'think' about killing somebody, but as long as you don't actual kill somebody (or maybe you do), you've made a choice. Of all the 'thoughts' in your head, you have the 'Free Will' to pick and choose which ones to act on.

You are correct. Free will is about what you do, but what is it that drives your intentional actions? Thoughts, right? You have a thought that you're thirsty and reach for a nearby glass of water. You have a thought that you're hungry and, via subsequent thoughts, decided to either get up and get food or to not get up and get food. The initial thought of "I'm hungry" is out of your control as are the subsequent thoughts that lead to action or inaction, aka "reasoning".

OK. Let's examine my picks. 'Terminator'. I liked that Movie. My son left for DC and I'm getting rid of a lot of stuff he left behind. One of the things is this large picture (about 2'x3') of Arnold Schwarzenegger in his years as a MuscleMan posing. It's near the front door awaiting a ride to the Goodwill. So ... maybe my subconscious linked to this?

'Die Hard'. I was just watching the News and saw something about Bruce Willis retiring from Acting because of a medical issue. My subconscious may have linked to this? Also, now thinking about it, I think there was a 'Die Hard' movie Poster in the background of the Newscast.

'Lost City'. I JUST saw this Movie Tuesday night. So it's pretty fresh in my mind.

Sure, recent events may have impacted why your brain came up with the movies that it did, but we have no visibility or control over the neurological functionality that generates movie names. That process just happens and names appear in consciousness, almost like someone is saying them to you. And since we are only downstream from that process, basically at the end, we are only free to pick movies that our brain pushes into consciousness. We aren't free to pick movies that we KNOW, but don't occur to us.

Here's something relate
Click to expand...

Zen: "but what is it that drives your intentional actions?'
Jack: Good Question.

Zen: "We aren't free to pick movies that we KNOW, but don't occur to us."
Jack: The more you think about it, the more Movies would 'occur'.

We are 'prisoners' of our own experiences. As in 'if you've never heard of the Movie, you can't pick it', or if it never occurs to you, you can't pick it.
 
Jack said:
Zen: "but what is it that drives your intentional actions?'
Jack: Good Question.

Zen: "We aren't free to pick movies that we KNOW, but don't occur to us."
Jack: The more you think about it, the more Movies would 'occur'.

We are 'prisoners' of our own experiences. As in 'if you've never heard of the Movie, you can't pick it', or if it never occurs to you, you can't pick it.
Click to expand...

right. it's dumb.
 
Jack said:
Zen: "but what is it that drives your intentional actions?'
Jack: Good Question.

The answer is our thoughts... which we don't author :)

Zen: "We aren't free to pick movies that we KNOW, but don't occur to us."
Jack: The more you think about it, the more Movies would 'occur'.

True, and you may eventually come up with a fairly complete list, but the limitations of free will still exist - you don't have free will to pick a movie that your brain doesn't push into consciousness.

We are 'prisoners' of our own experiences. As in 'if you've never heard of the Movie, you can't pick it', or if it never occurs to you, you can't pick it.

We've all had the experience of trying to think of someone's name. Maybe from high school or in a movie or whatever, but we just can NOT think of it. Then, 2 hours later when we've completely forgotten about the entire discussion, the name suddenly comes to mind. We weren't free to remember what we've forgotten and we aren't free to forget what we truly remember.
Click to expand...



Some related science:

Brain makes decisions before you even know it

Brain activity predicts decisions before they are consciously made.


Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

The work calls into question the ‘consciousness’ of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how ‘free’ we are to make a choice at a particular point in time.

“We think our decisions are conscious, but these data show that consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg,” says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, Germany, who led the study.

“The results are quite dramatic,” says Frank Tong, a neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Ten seconds is "a lifetime” in terms of brain activity, he adds.

On the button

Haynes and his colleagues imaged the brains of 14 volunteers while they performed a decision-making task. The volunteers were asked to press one of two buttons when they felt the urge to. Each button was operated by a different hand. At the same time, a stream of letters were presented on a screen at half-second intervals, and the volunteers had to remember which letter was showing when they decided to press their button.

When the researchers analysed the data, the earliest signal the team could pick up started seven seconds before the volunteers reported having made their decision. Because of there is a delay of a few seconds in the imaging, this means that the brain activity could have begun as much as ten seconds before the conscious decision. The signal came from a region called the frontopolar cortex, at the front of the brain, immediately behind the forehead.

This area may well be the brain region where decisions are initiated, says Haynes, who reports the results online in Nature Neuroscience1.

The next step is to speed up the data analysis to allow the team to predict people's choices as their brains are making them.

https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2008.751
 
Last edited:
ZenMode said:
Some related science:

Brain makes decisions before you even know it

Brain activity predicts decisions before they are consciously made.


Think it over: your brain might pre-empt your consciousness when deciding what to do. Credit: Punchstock
Your brain makes up its mind up to ten seconds before you realize it, according to researchers. By looking at brain activity while making a decision, the researchers could predict what choice people would make before they themselves were even aware of having made a decision.

The work calls into question the ‘consciousness’ of our decisions and may even challenge ideas about how ‘free’ we are to make a choice at a particular point in time.

“We think our decisions are conscious, but these data show that consciousness is just the tip of the iceberg,” says John-Dylan Haynes, a neuroscientist at the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Leipzig, Germany, who led the study.

“The results are quite dramatic,” says Frank Tong, a neuroscientist at Vanderbilt University in Nashville, Tennessee. Ten seconds is "a lifetime” in terms of brain activity, he adds.

On the button

Haynes and his colleagues imaged the brains of 14 volunteers while they performed a decision-making task. The volunteers were asked to press one of two buttons when they felt the urge to. Each button was operated by a different hand. At the same time, a stream of letters were presented on a screen at half-second intervals, and the volunteers had to remember which letter was showing when they decided to press their button.

When the researchers analysed the data, the earliest signal the team could pick up started seven seconds before the volunteers reported having made their decision. Because of there is a delay of a few seconds in the imaging, this means that the brain activity could have begun as much as ten seconds before the conscious decision. The signal came from a region called the frontopolar cortex, at the front of the brain, immediately behind the forehead.

This area may well be the brain region where decisions are initiated, says Haynes, who reports the results online in Nature Neuroscience1.

The next step is to speed up the data analysis to allow the team to predict people's choices as their brains are making them.

https://www.nature.com/articles/news.2008.751
Click to expand...


:) We may have a different understanding of 'Free Will'. Maybe mine is a more pedestrian view.
 
Althea said:
Nothing to do with the discussion.

So you think 'instinct' is how they know that people will feed them?

Is that what wolves did with early man?

I think not.
Click to expand...

they rely on the pack for protection and food. Whoever is providing the food is the defacto alpha so whether or not the alpha has 2 legs or 4 is immaterial.

early man provided food to wolves in need of it and became the alpha. early man REASONED that wolved could be useful partners in hunting thereby making the investment in feeding the wolf worthwhile.
 
AssHatZombie said:
I dispute your premise.

Yes there are instincts and habits and patterns, but we can rise above it all and do something different. that is exercizing free will.

there is no fate. --The Terminator
Click to expand...


Yes, we have instincts and we have habits and patterns - habits and patterns are what I would say it means to be "in character" for each person. We notice when people behave out of character - like Will Smith.

As far as rising above it all/doing something different goes.... what is an example of what you're saying?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top