Proles

Most people aren't going to kill each other. Most of society can still enjoy amenities while not giving anything back.

If people enjoyed the benefits of living in society without paying the costs of living in society then pretty soon it would descend into anarchy.

You just want to enjoy the benefits whilst others pick up the cost.

That makes you a parasite, like those who live on SS benefits and never contribute to society or groups like monarchies.
 
Living in society includes the ability to trade, to enjoy the comforts of living with protections against violence or theft, property rights, intellectual property rights etc.

These are social freedoms. Not natural freedoms.

With social freedoms come social responsibilities.
 
That makes you a parasite, like those who live on SS benefits and never contribute to society
//

Any, I have paid a lot of money into SS I will not be a leech untill I have drawn all out that I paid in. Also your SS benefits can be taxed in the USA.
 
Any, I have paid a lot of money into SS I will not be a leech untill I have drawn all out that I paid in. Also your SS benefits can be taxed in the USA.

But Grind, your desire is to live in society without paying these.

That you don't have the courage of your convictions (and thus leave society and not pay them) bears no relation to your desire...

Your desire is still to become a leech...
 
AnyOldIron said:
Living in society includes the ability to trade, to enjoy the comforts of living with protections against violence or theft, property rights, intellectual property rights etc.

These are social freedoms. Not natural freedoms.

With social freedoms come social responsibilities.
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Too many people think of social benefits strictly in terms of services explicitly provided by the government. That is, as you point out here, naive.

Fundamentally, society is about personal security and stability. That is the purpose for which it exists. More correctly, that's the evolutionary, survival benefit it provides. As society becomes more complex and population density increases, government inevitably and necessarily also becomes larger and more complex. So too do our social responsibilities.

It is a grievous mistake to confuse personal freedoms that result from our social constructs with "natural" freedoms. In fact, there are no natural freedoms, other than what one can secure by brute force alone.
 
In fact, there are no natural freedoms, other than what one can secure by brute force alone.

Exactly. Grind would be a scared little boy if natural freedoms were in operation.

For example:

Many of those who chant the mantra freedom support property rights, yet the concept of property rights are a social freedom only gained by living in society. Without that social freedom, property would be possessed by whoever had the strength to defend it.
 
uscitizen said:
Darn, someone would take his Ipod ;)
And there would be no cops or anyone to help him.
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Find them and take it back. Not too difficult there...

One can dispense with many of the "benefits" of government without enduring the supposed jungle and without leaving society itself.
 
uscitizen said:
IF one is capable of taking it back Damo.....
There is always someone bigger and meaner out there.
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Hence you learn to use that powerful tool, the brain. It is the reason that humans can defeat the elephant, or even the whale.
 
Damocles said:
Hence you learn to use that powerful tool, the brain. It is the reason that humans can defeat the elephant, or even the whale.
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Yep it works sometimes, but sometimes the baddie is big mean and smart :(
For that we established civilization and societies.
 
uscitizen said:
Yep it works sometimes, but sometimes the baddie is big mean and smart :(
For that we established civilization and societies.
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Nah, then the baddie establishes his form of government.

The idea that one cannot avoid these people without the help of government, or that government protects everybody from them both are equally ridiculous ideas. While government may mete out some form of "justice" it never can protect you from the big baddies...

That society itself is government is the misconception that people are spreading here.
 
Society and government are never the same thing. Only idealists living in neverland say such things. Whether we live in a dictatorship, monarchy, oligarchy or democracy those who hold the power in government belong to an elite that is not representative of society as a whole.

Whether or not this is a good or bad thing is another question.
 
Cypress said:
Are you suggesting that we do without cops and police departments?
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I am suggesting that a person who wished to live without the benefit of government could while still remaining in society. They are not one and the same.

I have proposed no plans to remove government from society.
 
I would think that if govt actually represented our society it would be a good thing.

Not me I have a low opinion of society. However I have an even lower opinion of government. Not a fan of the church or corporations either.

Maybe I just don't like anything.
 
One of the fallacies behind the idea that one cannot live in society without government is the idea that government is the wellspring of society and even civilization itself. Government is merely a tool.

Government exists of equal footing as organized religion and the market.
 
AnyOldIron said:
Living in society includes the ability to trade, to enjoy the comforts of living with protections against violence or theft, property rights, intellectual property rights etc.

These are social freedoms. Not natural freedoms.

With social freedoms come social responsibilities.
Click to expand...

Society existed long before medicare anyoldiron.
 
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